Ever get the feeling that online poker is rigged?

beardyian · Jun 7, 2005

I play at several sites and often if i start losing at 1 i will try my "luck" at another and more often than not will lose a bit there -
People - its called a losing streak!

It happened just last weekend, i couldnt get a decent hand for 2 days and then whammo :rock: i managed to win $25 with a full house and havent looked back since - picking out bluffs etc
People - its called a winning streak!

Toss a coin and call heads or tails it is not 50\50 - is the coin rigged?

iANft

IrishDave · Jun 7, 2005

RammerJammer said:
That's the first time I've heard that the RNG is active throughout the hand. I have always been under the impression that the RNG assembles the entire hand prior to the deal, then reveals the cards. Can anyone else confirm that the RGN is "reshuffling" the remaining deck before each card? If so, that only further diminishes the host's ability to stack a hand and cuts even deeper into the conspiracy theory.

I feel the same way as Rammer, I assume the RNG sets up the deck pre-hand. Been a C programmer for over 20 years and this is the way I'd do it. Having the RNG active throughout the hand goes against the premise of poker that the deck is shuffled pre-deal. Not sure the auditors would buy this as it allows the players to potentially influence the cards.

See my thread titled "A work of fiction" for another take on this issue...

chipshunter said:
Pokersites are not rigged, sheesh! How can you think just because you have a bad streak or get beaten by a foolish player doing something stupid counts as rigged.

Odds are odds and sometimes the 1:100 does happen and sometimes more often than 1:100. I had pockets aces dealt to me twice in a row and 4 times in that one tourney. I did not lose any of them either because I played them very strong and did not allow the badbeat to come my way. I also have won my share of "Big Blind Specials" as I call them. The most memorable was a 72os and no one raised preflop and I flopped 2 pair. The rive gave me a fullboat and I won my allin bet against AA and a flush in the small blind. Rigged no, lucky yes to be sitting in the BB otherwise I am folding preflop.

Chips, my pocket aces have been called often by 8-3 off and the like, even when I'm all in. I've played large pocket pairs in every way, bet big, limp in and trap, all in pre-flop, etc. There is no guarantee you won't get called...

RammerJammer · Jun 7, 2005

IrishDave said:
Not sure the auditors would buy this as it allows the players to potentially influence the cards.

How could the players influence the cards, Dave?

Or did you mean to say "the poker room"?

loaner246 said:
it's not rigging the cards that let's someone win or lose. it's dealing the action flops to keep at least two people betting to the river.

This is the first angle I've heard that even remotely begins to make sense. I still don't buy it from the "they've got more to lose than to gain by cheating" standpoint. But at least it's a feasible explanation for the potential motivation to build rakes by stacking hands.

Example: Full ring last week at a Noble .25/.50 NLHE table. The board came out garbage with a 9 high. No straights. No flushes. Three players, myself included, stayed in for the showdown after escalating bets each round took the pot to a large size. The hole cards? A9, K9, Q9.

Keep in mind, though, that most poker rooms will place a cap on the rakes for each hand. Once the pot reaches a predetermined level, the poker room has made all the money it's going to off that hand.

Four Dogs · Jun 7, 2005

Once again, there are hundreds of poker sites with more appearing everyday and I wouldn't trust them all, and certainly not with my CC#. Your only safeguard is to stick with well established poker rooms licensed by a reputable online gaming commission.

5starscotty · Jun 7, 2005

Things to think about

I wholeheartedly want to believe that it is not rigged, 99.9% of me is absolutely sure that it isnt. The scary part of the online game is that at some point there is a human involved ...lol...what i mean is...somebody wrote the programs....etc..etc...and then the collusion aspect..........there are more things to be worried about though, and that would be the ability to manipulate data...to further understand what i am talking about ..take 15 good minutes and check out www.pokerconduct.com IT is a bunch of onliners with the PLayers interest at heart and will open your eyes...IT IS INFORMATIONAL ONLY >>NO MONEY>>LOL you do owe it to yourself to read ALL articles there.:icon_sunn

H8POKER · Jun 7, 2005

I think people might try to cheat. Someone told me to stop wasting my money because people will play with there friends and be on the phone with them so they can tell each other what cards they have. Sure its possible but cheaters will get cought. Look at Vegas people will always try to cheat and some will get away with it, but for 2 guys trying to rip of a casino there is probally millons of dollars and a staff of how many there to stop them. Im sure its the same on the internet (just maybe a smaller scale)

loaner246 · Jun 7, 2005

the only rigging i see is the house rake. two or three players being dealt close hands to keep betting to the river. sure, the rooms may have a cap on the rake, but why not make the max rake on every hand by having two or three people betting it out to the river...if you don't think that happens...you're as dumb as the day is long...if you want to see it for yourself...play a few hands at IMERIAL POKER. Play a few hands and Gus Hansen's site. every board has a pair, gutshot straight, or flush draw. If you play those sites for about 15minutes each, and it doesn't change your mind...then you really are stupid and shouldn't even be walking around using up the precious oxygen we use. I don't believe that poker sites are rigged for dumb players...but they are CERTAINLy rigged for max house rake....

Crippler450 · Jun 7, 2005

Many sites ARE rigged slightly. It is not as hard as many of you think to rig a hand. You're all in with KK and someone has an A 2? all they have to do is deal until the river and throw an A up there. Many sites do not deal from the top, and you can see it in the coding of the program. It may seem like a huge undertaking but it is not. If it is proven to them that letting a player with a horrible w/l record lose, then they program the last card to help that player much more often. There is NO regulation that I am aware of, and the sites simply do what will make them more cash in the long run.

And if you dont believe me in saying that some sites are crooked, just try to withdraw a few hundred bucks more than you deposited from Pokerhost

Nikujin06 · Jun 8, 2005

Yes, sometimes I feel that some poker sites are rigged too. And I especially hate those cheaters who play online. For example, sometimes people work together on the same table and try to steal pots by betting aggressively and such.

IrishDave · Jun 8, 2005

To explain my comment about players influencing a hand if the RNG is active:

An RNG is generally "seeded" by a starting number, the system clock in many cases. If the seed changes based on table action then acting quick or acting slow could have an impact on the next card.

I personally think the deck is shuffled and set pre deal as this emulates a live game and makes the most sense. Who knows though, never wrote any poker software...

hackadart · Jun 8, 2005

This is only my second day on this forum and I don't want to make any enemies here but......

I can't beleive the number of posters that actually think that poker sites are rigged. In order to even begin to claim that a site was rigged you should have at least 100,000 hands in pokertracker stoftware that show some sort of descrepency. In all of the forums I belong to and all of the "its rigged" posts that I have read there has never been one single poster that could provide real statistical data to prove anything. I haven't even seen 10,000 hands that fall more than 1% outside of standard deviance.

I think I even read in this thread players talking about play money games being rigged which is beyond rediculous.

Some here have suggested that "the house" will try and keep losing players in the game by giving them winning hands, does this mean that there is a team watching individuals playing and ensuring that they win? That would seem like a very expensive way to earn a few more pennies in rake.

Statement like I lost ten coin flip situations in a row so it must be rigged are so far off base I don't even know where to begin....

I must end this post now for I have serious blood pressure issues.......

koy4714 · Jun 8, 2005

NBA

A little side note, the NBA team with the greatest chance to win the NBA Draft has only won, something like 1-2 times in the past ten years. This team has a ~24% chance to win! I feel sorry for the Atlanta Hawks who have been a brutal team the past few years and keep losing out on great players like Tim Duncan, Lebron, etc.

So I guess anything can happen. Unless you think the NBA draft lottery is rigged too!! (If you're not a Knicks fan, you'd probably think it was rigged when the Knicks got Ewing!!)

Take care.

RammerJammer · Jun 8, 2005

IrishDave said:
To explain my comment about players influencing a hand if the RNG is active:

An RNG is generally "seeded" by a starting number, the system clock in many cases. If the seed changes based on table action then acting quick or acting slow could have an impact on the next card.

But wouldn't that be sort of like hitting the "stop" button on a video slot machine? I mean, even if someone tried to throw off the RNG sequence by varying their response times, wouldn't they be completely shooting in the dark as to what effect that may have on the next card dealt? If I'm understanding you correctly, it's the equivalent of opting to change the color of the deck in an attempt to change your luck. Any positive influence is completely coincidental.

loaner246 · Jun 8, 2005

hackadart said:
Some here have suggested that "the house" will try and keep losing players in the game by giving them winning hands, does this mean that there is a team watching individuals playing and ensuring that they win? That would seem like a very expensive way to earn a few more pennies in rake.

.......

hackadart...don't you have anything to say about my post concerning "'action flops"..everybody keeps talking about giving winning players losing hands....everybody knows that is ridiculous...i want comments on action flops. i'm delt k,q and you are delt a,q...and the flop being a,a,q,j,10...would someone comment on that...i mentioned two poker sites that do this but nobody touches the topic...have any of you played the sites to check it out...EVERY flop has at least a pair or open straight or gutshot on it...that guarantees that two people will be betting to the river...that means the house will get the max rake even if they have a cap on the rake....comments

swtdreams1 · Jun 12, 2005

Well to answer that question..........we really dont know if they are rigged guess that makes it another form of gambling doesnt it

Poker Player 100 · Jun 12, 2005

no its not rigged

at least i dont think

Fencik · Jun 15, 2005

online poker is rigged. Not in the sense that you are thinking. The Poker Rooms have nothing to lose except the rake. You can tell when it is time for PP to catch up on the rake. 3 people at the table are dealt AA KK JJ. Obviously the bigger the bets, the bigger the rake.

Sometimes after I see a guy win huge pot after huge pot, I think it is rigged. I never seem to have that kind of luck for the short term. I always come out on top grinding it out at the $25 Nl tables.

Which leads me to my next point about it being rigged. Do you ever keep track of the Bad Beats after you cash out? One time after I cashed out about 900 from PP, I had the worst cards for about 400 hands. Out of the 400 hands, I was dealt 7-2, 8-3, 9-3 100 times. Magically after 400 hands, I started clearing some nice pots.

RammerJammer · Jun 15, 2005

Fencik said:
Do you ever keep track of the Bad Beats after you cash out? One time after I cashed out about 900 from PP, I had the worst cards for about 400 hands. Out of the 400 hands, I was dealt 7-2, 8-3, 9-3 100 times. Magically after 400 hands, I started clearing some nice pots.

Just sounds like playing poker to me. But I'm intrigued by your experience.

So you cashed out 900 bucks from "PP" (Paradise? Pacific? Party? Podunk?). And you bothered to keep up with all of your hole cards afterward for an unspecified, but apparently rather extended, period of time. And, excluding "big holes", you found you had the worse of it about 400 hands. And of those 400 hands, you specifically received 72, 83, or 93 an uncanny 100 times. Do I have it right?

steffne · Jun 16, 2005

From what I hear, but have not seen, there is a program that u can purchase that enables u to cheat and see other peoples cards and the cards to come, and the ability to change the river card. True of False, I do not know.

Steff

Red2121 · Jun 17, 2005

Hmmm

hmmm. intesting question. I turly do not think that online poker is rigged but sometimes you just get bad beats. that is why it is called GAMBELING. ANYTHING could happen anytime, anywhere.:beer:

Crippler450 · Jun 18, 2005

loaner246 said:
hackadart...don't you have anything to say about my post concerning "'action flops"..everybody keeps talking about giving winning players losing hands....everybody knows that is ridiculous...i want comments on action flops. i'm delt k,q and you are delt a,q...and the flop being a,a,q,j,10...would someone comment on that...i mentioned two poker sites that do this but nobody touches the topic...have any of you played the sites to check it out...EVERY flop has at least a pair or open straight or gutshot on it...that guarantees that two people will be betting to the river...that means the house will get the max rake even if they have a cap on the rake....comments

Exactly! What hackadart fails to realize is that the poker sites get MUCH more rake when more players play their hands. They make nothing when you fold...so they give players much better starting hands, flops, turns and rivers in general to keep them betting (thinking that they must win, even though they probably wont). Common sense tells you that this 'rigging' WOULD make the poker sites much more money. After all, who would want to play at a site (and pay there) just to sit and fold every hand for 30 minutes? They 'rig' the hands by making them unusually strong in order to keep it more exciting and the keep you hooked. This is not random, and is designed to unfairly generate more rake for the site. I do not need statistical proof of 10,000 hands to see this, just a little bit of commom sense and knowledge from playing real poker. Obviously, if hackadart only plays online he may not see much variance, but playing for real in casinos will give you a much better perspective of how often you see the kind of hands that you get online. (No, in real life you will not flop 2 pair or a nut flush on 90% of your hands...)

Poker Player 100 · Jun 18, 2005

***Disclaimer*** This is NOT a bad beat story

^ that right there explains it all within the first seconds.:icon_rabb

koy4714 said:
A little side note, the NBA team with the greatest chance to win the NBA Draft has only won, something like 1-2 times in the past ten years. This team has a ~24% chance to win! I feel sorry for the Atlanta Hawks who have been a brutal team the past few years and keep losing out on great players like Tim Duncan, Lebron, etc.

So I guess anything can happen. Unless you think the NBA draft lottery is rigged too!! (If you're not a Knicks fan, you'd probably think it was rigged when the Knicks got Ewing!!)

Take care.

wat about the lakers and. KObe,Shaq, Jhonson.kareem etc etc.

koy4714 · Jun 18, 2005

Poker Player 100 said:
***Disclaimer*** This is NOT a bad beat story

^ that right there explains it all within the first seconds.:icon_rabb

wat about the lakers and. KObe,Shaq, Jhonson.kareem etc etc.

Can you explain what you are saying? I honestly don't know what you are trying to get at.

The Lakers acquiring Kobe, Shaq, Magic, and Kareem have nothing to do with the draft position of the Lakers. (Although Magic was drafted first overall, it was because LA acquired Utah's pick for Gail Goodrich. Who? Exactly, I have no idea who this guy is/was!!)

My point concerning the Knicks, was that eventhough the worst team has the best chance at winning, they haven't for several years. Anything can happen. AA pre-flop is great, the best you can get. But it's only going to make up, at most 40%, of your hand.

On a side note, I rarely go all-in pre-flop for the first 5-10 hands of a MTT freeroll since people will call anything and usually catch something.

koy

smtbonzi · Jun 18, 2005

I have wondered that myself, although normally only after I have a bad beat...lol. I don't seriously think it is.

Devilpoker78 · Jun 18, 2005

No Ive been playing 2 years and had alot of bad beats come my way but I dont believe it is rigged. Pokersites got nothing to gain from rigging games, they just want to make their money which is fair enuff. If you think its rigged, dont play. Thats all there is to that.

Ever get the feeling that online poker is rigged?

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