Getting "priced in"

Cowboy8112 · Aug 22, 2008

Ok, I have received an email about this post, I understand. The Author is 100% correct. Im sorry I have conffused you guys. Disreguard this thread

sliver101 · Aug 23, 2008

Cowboy8112 said:
In the BB you will be the LAST person to make a move. So calling the raise that 5 or more other people is the right move as long as its for less than 20% of your chips.
Switch........what are you talking about?

with a good hand the more ppl tht call the less chance u have of winning with a bad hand it seems even less likely u would win and then u have the prob of being 1st/2nd to act with no info and the almost certain knowledge ur way behind and have to bluff with junk so ur 20 per could become a lot more a lot faster an still go in the muck being priced in is fine if u have at least playable cards but junks junk esp 4-5 handed

glworden · Aug 23, 2008

Thanks, Cowboy

Cowboy8112 said:
Ok, I have received an email about this post, I understand. The Author is 100% correct. Im sorry I have conffused you guys. Disreguard this thread

Well, Cowboy - we don't want to disregard this thread because it got us thinking and discussing. I've learned something and it sounds like you have, too. You started to sound a little beleaguered, but I sure hope you don't take anything personally. I for one welcome your posts, and though this might have felt like a rough experience for you, I hope you post again. If you say something that people have an issue with, it's only because they want to debate the subject - it's not an issue or an attack on you.

If in fact you've come to understand the validity of the responses and that your initial strategy has some problems with it, then you have benefited greatly from this thread and I'm really happy, for your sake, that you posted it.

I want to assure you that there is not one little bit of animosity towards you and that you're a welcome participant. I learned something from you. It was a challenge for me to keep my head clear and stay on subject in light of such strong opposition.

Please do us a favor. If somebody has e-mailed you with such a convincing argument that it's changed your mind, please share that e-mail with us. I'd really like to see the argument laid out in a way that you eventually found compelling.

Best of luck.
Gary

Cowboy8112 · Aug 23, 2008

Gary,

Oh no...........not at all. and yes I still post. Like I said earlier........This is exactly what I was looking for. Its the feed back and mind sets of other players that we all need to improve our games.

I am a gambler and take risks most players wont. However, If someone reads this thread and sits down at a table, gets delt a Q3 off and goes a head and calls the 3 times the big blind bet because they see that 6 other players are in the hand, and the flop comes 3Q3 and they end up cashing........then thats a good day for them and me.

The whole point of the thread, and yes I worded it very bad, was to get players to think about more than their hole cards. Poker has many dimensions and one dimensional players well not fare very well in the long run. Best case scenerio: You win the hand AND get people thinking you are a "loose" player and that may help you in later hands.

glworden · Aug 23, 2008

No real disagreement. All valid points. Mixing it up has its merits. Confusing table image is important. My only problem was the 20% and the notion that consistently playing this way is statistically valid, because it's just not.

I'd still be interested in knowing how your e-mailer worded things so that he convinced you while all of us couldn't.

By the way, most of my early posts were similar theories where I WAS WRONG and it took me a little gumption to get over that and adopt a more analytical approach. That's not to say that you can't be creative, because there's lots of room for creativity in poker. And it's also not to say that I'm not happy when my screwball moves pan out because of a miracle board. In the short term, I'll take luck over skill any day. But in the long term, skill prevails.

Which is why I don't really see poker as gambling. It's simply applied statistics. Over the long run, probability is very predictable and statistically correct play is bound to be profitable. That's not the ONLY element. You also have to have the skills to be able to win with the worst hand occasionally. But CALLING when the stats are against you is a hopeless strategy.
Gary

Chris_TC · Aug 23, 2008

Is this thread an epic level

jdeliverer · Aug 23, 2008

What's the message that you got? You don't have to say who its from, but I want to see how they worded things too.

Oh and by the way, just because everyone thinks you're wrong, doesn't mean you're wrong. It just means you haven't pushed hard enough. That's how it worked for me anyway

Or you could just be wrong.

Wonka22 · Aug 23, 2008

Cowboy8112 said:
well, you can disagree all you want. If everyone played the same way tournaments would NEVER end. as for me, I will put my money in the pot everytime I am invited in

and the vast majority of the time, someone will help you end your tourney early....

How many posts are on this site where someone asks "Did I do the right thing?? I had K5 offsuit there were 5 people in the pot, I was BB and called it....the guy gets a piece of piece of the flop ends up all in somehow..and still loses to Ax..........I think situations dictate when you call, the WHOLE situation, 2 7o just doesn't excite me enough to be that situation to call 10 to 15 times BB first hand of a tourney.

Cowboy8112 · Aug 23, 2008

Ok, let me say this a different way, and take the scenario out of the mix.
during a tournament,or even a cash game, PREFLOP. if you are in the BB SB or on the button. and 5 or more players have called either the blind or a raise (the LIMIT for me is up to 20% or 1/5 of my chip stack it is very rarely that high) You should CALL. what your hole cards are do not matter at this point. you want to be in monster pots. if you miss the flop you fold. Now think about this people how many times are you in one of those 3 positions when this has happened? not often. any chips you loose you should be able to recoup with tighter play. but do not miss these rare but golden opportunities when they do present themselves.
I hope this clears it up for everyone

glworden · Aug 23, 2008

it's just funny because you said you got an e-mail and understood that you were wrong, but now you're back to the original premise. Oh well.

jdeliverer · Aug 23, 2008

^ agree with glworden. My mistake, I thought you weren't just an ignorant stubborn idiot who doesn't know when he's wrong. Can't you listen when 20 people ALL disagree with you? I'm not wasting my time here anymore.

Don't listen to Cowboy's point here. It doesn't make any sense.

switch0723 · Aug 23, 2008

ok i took your point on board in a session tonight cowboy and these 2 hands came up

I had 8,4 in the small blind and someone raised then 4 people called, so i called 19% of my stack preflop, thats ok right?? I then proceeded to stack off on a 7 high flop ldo, but i know i must not be result orientated

The second hand however, i had pocket aces on the bb and someone raised in front and 5 people called, when it got around to me, it would have cost me 22% of my stack, so i folded, is that right??

Cowboy8112 · Aug 23, 2008

well the emailer was right, 1 dimentional palyers will never understand the concept and I need to let it go

Wonka22 · Aug 23, 2008

Cowboy8112 said:
well the emailer was right, 1 dimentional palyers will never understand the concept and I need to let it go

LOL!!

(sorry mods, i know you hate these posts....but....what more can be typed?)

Wonka22 · Aug 23, 2008

Cowboy8112 said:
Hand #56310740-17 at 315pmFreeBD-190 (No Limit tournament Hold'em)
Started at 22/Aug/08 15:40:44

nascar20048 is at seat 0 with 0 (sitting out).
megfogtum is at seat 1 with 6595.
quietjosh is at seat 2 with 1190.
trnyplyr is at seat 3 with 1875.
Davemlaw is at seat 4 with 960.
saladfinger is at seat 5 with 1655.
Cowboy8112 is at seat 6 with 4240.
nedmun02 is at seat 7 with 1700.
billgerr is at seat 8 with 1250.
GARY022 is at seat 9 with 1395.
The button is at seat 5.

billgerr folds. GARY022 folds. megfogtum calls.
quietjosh folds. trnyplyr calls. Davemlaw folds.
saladfinger calls. Cowboy8112 calls. nedmun02
checks.
Flop (board: 8c Qh 6h):

Cowboy8112 bets 150. nedmun02 folds. megfogtum
folds. trnyplyr folds. saladfinger folds.
Cowboy8112 is returned 150 (uncalled).

Hand #56310740-17 Summary:

No rake is taken for this hand.
Cowboy8112 wins 150.

This is an example, I wont usually play Q5 o, but I was getting 5 to 1 hit a Q and took the pot

I don't see where this applies to your original post.....I'm not sure that there is ANYONE here who wouldn't make that call....I'd like to know if you'd have called if Saladfinger had bet 810 chips.

If you would have, I'd LOVE to meet you in a game.

Just completing the big blind is NOTHING....look at your chip stack.

Cowboy8112 · Aug 23, 2008

No, if he bets I lay down. Now if nedmun raises to 810, and I get at least 4 others for a total of 5 to 1, I call because now its a 5k pot and only costs me another 660 chips. Wouldnt you call 660 to get into a 5k pot preflop?

blankoblanco · Aug 23, 2008

inspirational thread

cAPSLOCK · Aug 23, 2008

I am finding this thread extremely interesting. There are a lot of things to learn really.

Is it normal for the crowd to be so hostile though? And to a relatively new member?

But I do like thinking about hypothetical situations where family pots can offer special circumstances.

Another question I have is sort of philosophical... If NLHE poker is ONLY (or even primarily) about statistics then why is it so hard to code a winning NLHE strategy computer program?

And next... to what extent do non statistical factors in NLHE strategy play a part?

To put it more to the point when would "who you are playing with" matter enough to change "when you should bet" like the example of the early freeroll, or the 05/10 cent ring game at the nursing home.

Of course, I don't know why I might wade in here and risk being called an idiot.

love,
cAPS

cAPSLOCK · Aug 23, 2008

Cowboy8112 said:
No, if he bets I lay down. Now if nedmun raises to 810, and I get at least 4 others for a total of 5 to 1, I call because now its a 5k pot and only costs me another 660 chips. Wouldnt you call 660 to get into a 5k pot preflop?

For what it's worth, I would not make that call with ANY two cards. In many circumstances I would just let me $30 blind go. With 5:1 odds I would want two cards I felt would offer me on average a 20% or better chance at winning.

Maybe something like Q9s+ A9o+ 77+ and the like... IF I was feeling frisky.

love,
cAPS

Cowboy8112 · Aug 23, 2008

They are not being "rude" per se, They are set on their convictions ans I understand and accpet that, I am set on mine, They understand and accept that....put it is a poker playes way to "one up" the other player because noone of are are willing to just "SHUT UP ABOUT IT"....lol

Dwilius · Aug 23, 2008

Cowboy8112 said:
well the emailer was right, 1 dimentional palyers will never understand the concept and I need to let it go

ROFL, if there is some hostility as this thread continues, its because of this. Cowboy is repeating that people just don't understand. They do but disagree, and I think there are many kinds of players disagreeing. I can see your point about opening up your range when last to act with several in the pot...but it should be hands like semi connectors with nut possibilities against this many players not ATC where you can catch all kinds of crushed hands...and I know its your max but 20% is way too much. The players reading this thread aren't one dimensional, but maybe not enough calling stations have read this yet.

Cowboy8112 · Aug 23, 2008

Its been my experiance that with 5 or more callers they are eating each others cards, ie, alot of the A off. KQ and such are not "live" giving me a better chance of hitting with lessor cards and leaving them not much to draw to.

Dwilius · Aug 24, 2008

There probably will be some shared cards, but with five in there will also likely be a setminer, better drawing cards etc. An advantage to doing something like this is the worst players are looking to get their money in right away. Some seem to think they'll build a pot to take it down with ace high, and there are others who will call it all off with any part of the board...but you have no reads at this point. You can play better speculative hands and more of them for a couple hundred chips. There will still be bad players to pay you off after you hit, so you don't need to be throwing so much in blind.

Cowboy8112 · Aug 24, 2008

no one is acting behind you, remember this is a PREFLOP situation, I dont suggest it unless you are in a blind or on the button.

Dwilius · Aug 24, 2008

Cowboy8112 said:
no one is acting behind you, remember this is a PREFLOP situation, I dont suggest it unless you are in a blind or on the button.

LOL. OK, Cowboy. I even conceded some points to you, and you respond by telling me the basis again...which everyone knows...and I didn't contradict in my post...I'm out. In the words of the mystery mailer, "I need to let it go"

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