Have We Over Complicated This Game?

stil370 · Jan 3, 2021

Sometimes I find myself over thinking decisions in poker. Do many of you feel the same way? have you found yourself doing this?

How well do you think a basic ABC approach would work at most levels?
Just curious. I think there have been many a time, I should have just done the simple thing in some situations and just folded.
Certainly, I have found that bluff catching in the long run is negative EV.

CSLysander · Jan 3, 2021

Some people have a little more luck than others and think it is skill. This makes them come up with overcomplicated explanations to "change" the game. I will admit that I will study people who have valid explanations. That said, I still play my game. I will play when I enjoy it instead of making it a business. When you are having fun, even if you lose, means the experience is worth far more than bringing out a slide ruler and making it all a formula.

wizz99 · Jan 3, 2021

I think it can be good to go back to basics sometimes to see how you perform. Some times I found myself straying too far away from the basics and wish perhaps I'd played tighter for example.

Good practise to analyse the hand(s) that lost you the most chips in a session, see if you played it fundamentally wrong or if it was just bad luck/runout. Sometimes we make bad decisions under time pressure etc.

cathi1962 · Jan 3, 2021

Have We Over Complicated This Game? I'm not sure what you mean by over complicated this game? If you are referring to Cardschat? I would agree that it's over complicated because they make it difficult to find passwords, and there are so many contests it's difficult to keep up with them all. If you are referring to just any poker tournament, then I don't think it's over complicated, follow the basic techniques in poker, and you are on your way! It's not just about luck, but knowing the rules!

tazer · Jan 3, 2021

I think you can delve into analysis too much in anything. How much easier would poker be if everyone played straight forward. Play your hands for what position you are in. Have the correct bet sizing. Only play x% of ranges. What makes the game interesting is deviating from these things and players deviating from them. Making some actions unpredictable. When it comes down to it the best made hand wins. That's it. Analysis and everything helps you be profitable in the long run so it isn't pointless. I just feel like you just have to use things that work but don't forget the main part of poker... Best hand wins.

YogSothoth · Jan 3, 2021

stil370 said:
Sometimes I find myself over thinking decisions in poker. Do many of you feel the same way? have you found yourself doing this?

How well do you think a basic ABC approach would work at most levels?
Just curious. I think there have been many a time, I should have just done the simple thing in some situations and just folded.
Certainly, I have found that bluff catching in the long run is negative EV.

I think online, especially in the early stages of tournaments, ABC poker, discipline and a healthy bankroll are winning tickets. 6-Max cash games (I play 0.25 / 0.50) are where I find myself deliberating more, and I think there it's necessary. Until after the bubble in tournaments, though, I just pretend I'm playing robots and set my strategy to autopilot.

nellorossi83 · Jan 3, 2021

Man, i just play freerolls for fun... then doesnt matter the result for me... somtimes i get some dollars... after i got this decision everything becames easy and funny for me. I wont change. No hard decisions

stil370 · Jan 3, 2021

My personal opinion is that many of us have a tendency to over think things.
How does that expression go?
"The more you know...."
may be the less you know
or something like that.
As someone mentioned above, its always a good idea to go back to the basics, probably a good way of knowing how far you have strayed from the simple fundamentals of this game.

gryphon3005 · Jan 4, 2021

All you have to do is watch a video from guys like Jonathan Little or Doug Polk talking about a single hand. They can easily go on for 10-12 minutes covering all the "basics" about each play. I know they are trying to teach or help players understand the so called modern approach to poker but in real time, in the game, the average player is not going to take several minutes to think about "stuff". I think the over-thinking can lead to fewer folds because we tend to come up with reasons to satisfy our curiosity. We "see" bluffs where there aren't any or we really believe our single pair is could enough to go to showdown. I think you're right, stil370, we do make things too complicated.

NWPatriot · Jan 4, 2021

stil370 said:
Sometimes I find myself over thinking decisions in poker. Do many of you feel the same way? have you found yourself doing this?

How well do you think a basic ABC approach would work at most levels?
Just curious. I think there have been many a time, I should have just done the simple thing in some situations and just folded.
Certainly, I have found that bluff catching in the long run is negative EV.

I agree 100% - we have made poker overly complicated. GTO solvers have only made it more complicated. We (humans) can't possibly implement a perfect GTO strategy without overthinking things.

When I start struggling at the tables, I always go back to basics, tighten up a bit, fix my bet sizes, pay closer attention to the bluff situations, watch my opponents more, all of that. Then I right the ship so to speak, and I start playing well again.

The optimal poker strategy has to really rely on a good macro-level game plan. We can deviate to take advantage of specific situation, but we should not be deviating 100% of the time.

Good luck and God bless.

DS3 · Jan 4, 2021

gryphon3005 said:
All you have to do is watch a video from guys like Jonathan Little or Doug Polk talking about a single hand. They can easily go on for 10-12 minutes covering all the "basics" about each play. I know they are trying to teach or help players understand the so called modern approach to poker but in real time, in the game, the average player is not going to take several minutes to think about "stuff". I think the over-thinking can lead to fewer folds because we tend to come up with reasons to satisfy our curiosity. We "see" bluffs where there aren't any or we really believe our single pair is could enough to go to showdown. I think you're right, stil370, we do make things too complicated.

Funny you mention this. I used to have a lot of time for Doug Polk (still like him) but then it struck me half of his videos were verbal fluff. The hero has a specific hand and now lets go through every conceivable hand the villain might have. The key points could be condensed into a few sentences but the idea is to drag each video out in length to make it more profitable (re You Tube). It is so much verbal guff- but then most You Tubers engage in the same practice - pad the videos.

Very happy here several have noted going back to basics. Could not agree more and I do so regularly - it is easy to slip into playing out of position or find you are expanding your range out of boredom/frustration. Every time I consciously tighten my game up I feel in better control.

stil370 · Jan 4, 2021

I'm glad DS that you brought up Doug Polk (no doubt a great poker mind), but I honestly believe that his in depth interpretation of hands can be more of a negative than a positive for the majority of poker players.
I understand that his analysis can be useful for a certain level of player, but then there is the other 85%.

chuckycheese · Jan 4, 2021

CSLysander said:
Some people have a little more luck than others and think it is skill. This makes them come up with overcomplicated explanations to "change" the game. I will admit that I will study people who have valid explanations. That said, I still play my game. I will play when I enjoy it instead of making it a business. When you are having fun, even if you lose, means the experience is worth far more than bringing out a slide ruler and making it all a formula.

my saying is you study long you study wrong. I play hunches a lot more than anything else. you win somec you lose some

noskilluk · Jan 5, 2021

I think it depends on what you want out of the game, and it is just that for most people, a game...

I play largely for fun, I don't expect or need to make money, although it's nice when it happens but that isn't the aim of the time I spend, I make far more money reliably by doing my day job. Because of this largely I have, and continue, to 'play by feel', I don't work out odds or very often or things like that, it's a simple game that's enjoyable for me.

Saying that, I'd like to get better, hence why I joined this forum... But it's a choice as to how complicated you want to make it, at least in my opinion.

Of course if it's your 'job' or main source of income then that's a different thing...

balo · Jan 5, 2021

gryphon3005 said:
All you have to do is watch a video from guys like Jonathan Little or Doug Polk talking about a single hand. They can easily go on for 10-12 minutes covering all the "basics" about each play. I know they are trying to teach or help players understand the so called modern approach to poker but in real time, in the game, the average player is not going to take several minutes to think about "stuff". I think the over-thinking can lead to fewer folds because we tend to come up with reasons to satisfy our curiosity. We "see" bluffs where there aren't any or we really believe our single pair is could enough to go to showdown. I think you're right, stil370, we do make things too complicated.

Excactly! I am not a big fan of watching pros telling us what to do or even want to teach you some advanced stuff and get paid for it.
Negreanu's Master class is probably worth it if you want to go into details, but for me personally I trust myself and learn by mistakes.
I know I am not a pro, and that there will always be better players around the table, but you have to follow your own instincts if you want to fold or do that hero call on the river.

Every table is different, especially in tournaments. Take your time and try to read other players, who can you bluff, who do you want to avoid because you know they are better than you.
The key to success in tournaments is patience, if you do not have a lot of patience, you will lose more than you win.

akgross · Jan 5, 2021

I try to always stick to the rules and play responsibly, not overestimate the strength of my hand and play the card. Otherwise, I lose control over the course of the game. bluffing is good when you have a big stack. Good luck.

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Have We Over Complicated This Game?

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