How do you counter people who play for draws indiscriminately

fcumred · Aug 17, 2008

I've noticed recently that I am coming up against people that will pay any price to try and hit a flush or straight draw.

Example - Today I had JJ. I am BB so raise the pot by about 3 BBs and get called by a mid table player. The flop comes over 6 8 10. I then raise again by the size of the pot and he calls. So alarm bells start ringing, and I think he may have a higher pocket pair.

The turn comes over a Q so now I am very very dubious.

I then check and he checks behind me.

The river comes over and its a J.

I check, he raises all in and I call.

He turns over K 9 off suit. Hes hit the straight. I have a straight too, but mine is only Q high, his is K high.

I was quite polite and said NH, but I asked him why he had called two raises pre and post flop and yet continued to play. He simply said "well I had the straight draw so went for it "

How can you combat that kind of play ? Its the same with flush draws. You hit top set, on the flop, and you find they raise you all in.. You call and they've got two rags suited with the flush draw.

A fair percentage of the time they hit, and you end up losing a mint because they have taken one almighty gamble and its paid off...

feitr · Aug 17, 2008

fcumred said:
A fair percentage of the time they hit, and you end up losing a mint because they have taken one almighty gamble and its paid off...

if you really believe that then you should quit poker.

fcumred · Aug 17, 2008

feitr said:
if you really believe that then you should quit poker.

Its not a case of what I believe, its what I've seen.

i am not saying they hit every time, far from it, but they do hit, and its happened to me quite a bit recently..

So, as I asked in the original question, which you have chosen to ignore, how do you counter it ?

shinedown.45 · Aug 17, 2008

fcumred said:
I've noticed recently that I am coming up against people that will pay any price to try and hit a flush or straight draw.

Example - Today I had JJ. I am BB so raise the pot by about 3 BBs and get called by a mid table player. The flop comes over 6 8 10. I then raise again by the size of the pot and he calls. So alarm bells start ringing, and I think he may have a higher pocket pair.

The turn comes over a Q so now I am very very dubious.

I then check and he checks behind me.

The river comes over and its a J.

I check, he raises all in and I call.

He turns over K 9 off suit. Hes hit the straight. I have a straight too, but mine is only Q high, his is K high.

I was quite polite and said NH, but I asked him why he had called two raises pre and post flop and yet continued to play. He simply said "well I had the straight draw so went for it "

How can you combat that kind of play ? Its the same with flush draws. You hit top set, on the flop, and you find they raise you all in.. You call and they've got two rags suited with the flush draw.

A fair percentage of the time they hit, and you end up losing a mint because they have taken one almighty gamble and its paid off...

It depends on the pot size as how I go about playing against chasers, If I know that a player is on a draw and is willing to call a good sized bet on the flop and I am certain he hasn't hit the turn, I will generally push, depending if any bet I was to put out there would commit me to the pot.
Sometimes the chaser may not be willing to risk his stack on a draw, other times there is nothing you can do about it.

feitr · Aug 17, 2008

ppl making incorrect plays, such as paying far too much for a draw, are the reason others can make a profit at the game. Value bet more thinly, double and triple barrel hands etc vs players you know don't like to fold so long as they have a non-zero % of making a hand. The times some idiot is willing to call off 2 streets in the hopes of making a gutshot more than pays off the times that somebody gets lucky.

Also, it probably doesn't hurt to learn to fold 4 to a straight boards if villain is a station that is highly unlikely to bluff without a straight...or otherwise you are giving ppl very nice implied odds to hit their draw. Since villain obviously plays almost atc preflop and probably is passive postflop, you can probably bet that the majority of times villain shows up in this hand with a straight.

PopeNegro · Aug 17, 2008

what feitr said. You make them pay by NOT getting the correct odds to call and NOT paying them off. They have the odds to call almost any bet you make if you stack off everytime they hit it.

Also JJ and you have a Q high straight? Did you mean a set?

fcumred · Aug 17, 2008

PopeNegro said:
what feitr said. You make them pay by NOT getting the correct odds to call and NOT paying them off. They have the odds to call almost any bet you make if you stack off everytime they hit it.

Also JJ and you have a Q high straight? Did you mean a set?

Sorry yes, I had the set. He had the straight.

Without having the HH history there in front of me its a bit confusing..

Dwilius · Aug 17, 2008

Either push the action and make them pay for draws or be able to fold when the draw fills in (read dependant)...probably just need practice putting opponents on hands if you're paying off draws too often.

konawajim · Aug 17, 2008

I just the same thing happen. I had QQ and rivered my third Q only to lose to a st8. Guy was holding J9 flop was 8 10 3 turn 7 river Q. Grrrrrrr

S93 · Aug 17, 2008

fcumred said:
Its not a case of what I believe, its what I've seen.

i am not saying they hit every time, far from it, but they do hit, and its happened to me quite a bit recently..

So, as I asked in the original question, which you have chosen to ignore, how do you counter it ?

How many times have u bet on the river and some one folded? They where probly on a draw as well and whount call a river bet with nothing,thats the reason u dont see busted draws,they fold.

Just bet more and make them pay for there draws.
Like Feitr said if u dont manage to fold when vilian suddonly comes to live after playing passivly your giving implied odds to chase.

fcumred · Aug 18, 2008

sindri_93 said:
How many times have u bet on the river and some one folded? They where probly on a draw as well and whount call a river bet with nothing,thats the reason u dont see busted draws,they fold.

Just bet more and make them pay for there draws.
Like Feitr said if u dont manage to fold when vilian suddonly comes to live after playing passivly your giving implied odds to chase.

You dont get what I am saying..

I could have QQ, and raise big time pre flop. They call. I hit top set, so I then raise even more. They still call. I go all in and they still call, and they have been calling all the way with two suited rags, they've hit a flush draw on the flop and they just keep calling.

It doesnt matter what I bet, no matter how big it is, if they have a flush draw they will call it, and if they hit on the river you lose a nice chunk of your stack,.

How do you shake off people who just will not fold, as long as they have a straight or flush draw...

Also I have had a set of Aces after the turn and the bloke has raised all in before me. Again hes on a flush draw. Fortunately he failed so I wiped him out, but on other occasions they will push all in with a flush draw ( and no they arent short stacked ) when I have by far the superior hand, and I have to lay it down.. losing what could potentially be a nice pot for me.....

fcumred · Aug 18, 2008

D'wilius said:
Either push the action and make them pay for draws or be able to fold when the draw fills in (read dependant)...probably just need practice putting opponents on hands if you're paying off draws too often.

How can you possibly read someones hand when they will call with anything..

They are the kind who will call an all in raise with 5 8 hearts. Likewise going all in with K 10

And I am not just tlaking about in freerolls either. Its been happening in $5 MTTs too...

PokerVic · Aug 18, 2008

You get these players in games of every type and stake.

The simple answer is force them to pay for their draws. Bet enough to not give them the odds to call. Then, if they hit their hand, do not pay them off. A lot of these players simply will not bluff, so if they start betting wildly on the turn or river, you can be fairly sure that their hand has improved.

Of course, that's easy to say, but in practice, they can be one of the most difficult types to play against. You often have no idea what they are holding, and a perfectly safe board could have made them two pair to crack your overpair.

widowmaker89 · Aug 18, 2008

First of all, if you want analysis of the hand then please include hand histories. I am sorry if I am a little skeptical about a guy calling a pot sized bet needing runner runner.

But I suppose that isnt even the point of your post so here is an answer for you. Being very happy these people exist as you should be able to run over them. Also, note these people and next time dont lay down your far superior hand since there all in range(since they werent SS, this is probably an overbet) might be just draws or at least make up a good chunk.

Also, you say you raise 3BB, try raising more like 4BB+1BB/limper.

It also seems you may just be in a bad streak where they are hitting more than they should. Just keep in mind you are a big favorite(~2:1) most of the time and getting your money in is all you can do. If they are really tearing you down then maybe you are playing over your BR as well?

fcumred · Aug 18, 2008

widowmaker89 said:
First of all, if you want analysis of the hand then please include hand histories. I am sorry if I am a little skeptical about a guy calling a pot sized bet needing runner runner.

At the lower stakes, which is the level I am playing at, they will call a 6 x BB raise with 7 5 suited, simply because they are suited.

I could hit quads, raise all in, and they would still call if there was the hope of a flush draw.

We are talkng real idiots here. the kind that will call an all in raise with bottom pair..

widowmaker89 · Aug 18, 2008

I know, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt be charging them more, really it comes down to figuring out who these people are and value bet them every chance you get. Dont bluff as much as they will call with any piece of the flop, just wait for good hands(they dont even have to be great as their range is huge) and value bet all the way. It is frusterating when they hit, and really the probably I think people have is tilting after getting drawn out on, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt be charging them more and getting your money in with the best of it.

Pokertron3000 · Aug 18, 2008

Playing at I guess the same levels I see a lot of this too.

Take notes on betting pattens after they hit the flush and how high they hit their flushes, if you start coming up against them alot this information will help.

You cannot stop them from doing this, you just have to accept it and try to find pattens in a players behavior.

ScorpionMK · Aug 18, 2008

konawajim said:
I just the same thing happen. I had QQ and rivered my third Q only to lose to a st8. Guy was holding J9 flop was 8 10 3 turn 7 river Q. Grrrrrrr

He had a VERY VERY good hand after the flop.... He had a open ended streight + a higher card. He didnt know what you were holding and with J9 thats the kind of flop you are hoping for. IMO i would rather hope for that kind of flop than seeing a highest card J on there because there is so many cards out there that can beat your kicker and not to mention possible streights and flushes or even trips. Dont forget possibilities of J+ coming up on turn and river.

Poof · Aug 18, 2008

I think checking the turn may have shown him weakness and it gave him the river card for free. I suppose if you raised he may well have called but maybe not? And at least he would be paying to see that card, he cannot hit it every time, I would definitely make a note.

rockpoker · Aug 18, 2008

I think that in loose table you have that raise 4BB to 5 BB; players loose call 3BB easy; You must press powerfully to rival, to persuade to which he fold your hand.
I play powerful hand of this way and it gives me good results.

WVHillbilly · Aug 18, 2008

Why would you ever want to avoid these people? I say seek them out every time you play, so they can lose a lot of $$ to you in the long run.

How do you counter people who play for draws indiscriminately

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