is it gambling ?

hi all,
I was having a 'discussion' with a friend about poker being a game of skill,
he insisted that it was still gambling.
there are elements of luck in every sport as far as I know.
In my case, I never gamble on anything (horses,dogs,sports,fruit machines etc.
and I never deposit on poker sites unless I want to withdraw (I grind freerolls then use good BRM to grind thru micro.)
I'm probably never gonna get rich from poker but I don't care, as I just
enjoy playing the game and growing my BR.
my point is, as I never use my own money to play,
how can it be considered gambling ?

This has been debated to death here at least 20 times since I've been a member.

The general consensus is since it's a skill game it is not gambling in the traditional sense. Of course, opinions vary and not everyone agrees one way or another.

I'm sure if you do a thread search, you'll find a few threads already covering this for your viewing pleasure.

it depends on the situation in my opinion.Like you said if u dont ever deposit money then i dont think its gambling but if you get to the point were youre depositing every so often and your loosing your deposit faster than you deposit it then i think you have a little problem, but all in all i thing if you can control your spending you shoulnt have a serious problem with playing poker

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/general-poker-13/poker-gambling-188353/

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/general-poker-13/poker-gambling-134652/

...just for starters.

IMO it's totally gambling but I seem to be in the minority.

Common sense man, yes it's GAMBLING!!!!!!! Quit trying to rationalize it that it not. You're in denial.

Depends on what you define as gambling. If you believe betting on an edge is not gambling then it is not gambling.

If you believe once money is put up, it is gambling, your not going to change your mind.

To each his own.

What outsiders consider gambling (and rightfully so) is any "game of chance". Usually this means betting on the outcome of an event of which you have control, whether it's the spin of a wheel, a horse race, or roll of the dice.

The real argument would be is poker a game of chance? Certainly not like roulette, nor even like betting on the Packers to beat the Chiefs. What makes poker different?

#1 - Player has some control of his fate. What other gambling game in the casino gives the player that? There may be some (blackjack, to a limited extent) but not to the degree poker gives you.

#2 - Poker is heavy on strategies beyond mere betting. I say it that way as there are those that would contend there are betting strategies in roulette.

#3 - There is an element of chance as to how the cards will fall, but this is not the determining factor of winning or losing as most hands will not make it to showdown.

#4 - You are not playing against the house - everyone knows that one so I won't detail it out.

#5 -

Poker is gambling. If I was to play golf with a buddy and bet on my game on the course It is based largely on skill. That's still gambling. Poker is not the tradition casino game as there is more stragety and skill involved. But how many to times have you seen the outcome was based on luck....... bad beats.....getting in with 50:50 preflop .......poker is not solely based on skill.

Marginal said:

Depends on what you define as gambling. If you believe betting on an edge is not gambling then it is not gambling.

If you believe once money is put up, it is gambling, your not going to change your mind.

To each his own.

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Yea dude.

Poker is a game of skill that obviously has an element of luck to it. This is why you measure your success at the game over the long term. Interestingly there was an article in my local paper the other day about legislation in NY State to make it a game of chance.
Here is a link to the thread I wrote when I saw the article: http://pokerpaul2.blogspot.com/2011/12/game-of-skill-or-chance.html

"yawn"

I'll never understand why people think that a game of skill and gambling are mutually exclusive. I have a friend who plays chess for money in the parks. Even though there is no luck element he still thinks of it as gambling because he is wagering on something with an uncertain outcome. It's the wagering that makes it gambling not whether it is a game of chance or skill.

Marginal said:

Yea dude.

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Mirror, Mirror on the wall.........

I think th OP was wondering if he wasn't using his own money would if be gambling. If some buddy gave me money to play poker. I'm still playing poker thus the act of playing poker is gambling So I think as long ad you are using real money whether it's your or not it's still gambling. If you were using fake money then I would consider that not gambling

My thoughts:

The question here suggests that we can give a Yes/No answer but my view is that the answer is both yes and no. Within poker there are two distinct games going on at once, a game of skill and a game of luck.

Playing a hand so that it does not go to showdown is skill based. Pre-flop play that results in moving others off hands uncontested is skill based. Post flop bet-sizing to move others off hands is skill based. Reading others ranges and making decisions that will lead to them making a mistake is skill based. Working out a strategy depending on position, stack size, etc is skill based. Developing an effective bankroll management system and sticking to it is skill based. Post-flop play where you know you have the absolute nuts and are looking to extract maximum value is skill based
However............................

Other than is cases where you do have the absolute nuts, and you are relying on either a card coming or not coming to determine the outcome, this is luck based and therefore gambling. Flop quads with your pocket A's with a AAK flop and there is still a chance you can be beat by a royal flush. The outcome is not certain, so there is an element of risk. Therefore it is gambling. Knowing the percentages, playing according to odds, understanding which plays are -ve versus +ve, all of this is about risk mitigation. None of it though eliminates the risk, it just reduces the risk.

Some would argue that over a large enough sample size, if you keep making the correct play, things will even out over time to the point where luck is eliminated and it is purely a game of skill. They say that even if things swing badly against you, good bankroll management should protect you to the point where you can recover over time. This is not true. What is happening here is risk mitigation, not risk elimination.

Gathering statistical data over billions of hands will allow you to determine the probability of outcomes going a certain way. Statistical data analysis however will not give you absolutes, merely the extent to which an outcome is probable.

Therefore playing perfectly, making every correct decision 100% of the time, and it is highly probable that you will win.

Am sure others would sum it up better than this, but this is my way of looking at it.

I do wonder about those that are hell-bent on trying to convince people that it is all about skill.............The lady doth protest too much methinks..............

CuttleFish

By the way, it really annoys me when topics are covered here and long standing members give a "yawn" "bored" "we've coverd this a billion times" type answers.

Yes, yes, we get it. Youve been here a long time and have discussed folding pocket A's pre-flop a gazillion times. Well done. *clap* *clap*. You're infinitely smarter than the rest of us.

If the thread doesnt interest you, why bother to type "yawn" into the box? You've come across a thread, started reading it, see that a discussion is developing and then have made a choice to type "yawn" in, and press submit. I know its quicker than typing in " I am very clever and have already thought this topic through to its natural conclusion and know the outcome" but its essentially the same thing.

You could give us a list of what topics you think would be acceptable to discuss? Alternatively you could keep new members out so that they dont annoy you with their inane threads.

CuttleFish said:

By the way, it really annoys me when topics are covered here and long standing members give a "yawn" "bored" "we've coverd this a billion times" type answers.

Yes, yes, we get it. Youve been here a long time and have discussed folding pocket A's pre-flop a gazillion times. Well done. *clap* *clap*. You're infinitely smarter than the rest of us.

If the thread doesnt interest you, why bother to type "yawn" into the box? You've come across a thread, started reading it, see that a discussion is developing and then have made a choice to type "yawn" in, and press submit. I know its quicker than typing in " I am very clever and have already thought this topic through to its natural conclusion and know the outcome" but its essentially the same thing.

You could give us a list of what topics you think would be acceptable to discuss? Alternatively you could keep new members out so that they dont annoy you with their inane threads.

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I love this post. Let me draw you.

how did you get access to my webcam?

gamble >verb 1 play games of chance for money; bet. 2 bet (a sum of money). 3 take risky action in the hope of a desired result. >noun 1 an act of gambling. 2 a risky undertaking.

I think Poker fits the definition. The question is the over debated skill/luck question. If there was no luck then the best player should win every time like in Chess. Since it is a game of mathematical probabilities and many other factors - it is game game of both. The percentage that skill or luck plays is a factor of the relative abilities of the players. if the players are of near or equal skill then cards play a bigger role over a large sampling of hands.

CuttleFish said:

"yawn" .

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"Search" button. SOOOO easy to use. And the discussion "Is poker gambling" bores me almost as much as the "Is poker rigged" one. ESPECIALLY since it is started every other month with posters making no effort to find out if the forum may actually in fact have a number of the threads already and, thus, not needed anymore. SO while you certainly have the right to take offense at my boredom - not that I really care either way - I also have the right to


"yawn"

ckickenking said:

Common sense man, yes it's GAMBLING!!!!!!! Quit trying to rationalize it that it not. You're in denial.

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Loser ^ (obviously)

.... & a double yawn.... "YAWN" (donks in this thread obviously)

tcummo said:

how can it be considered gambling ?

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It's probably going to come down to which definition of "gambling" you use. "Betting money on an uncertain outcome" fits poker. Or does it, when you look at it this way:

A single game of poker is gambling -- a lifetime of poker is not.

I think it's the variance that throws people. For the great players, it's a certainly that they win money over time. But during any given single game, that's not even close to being certain. So is the outcome -- over a player's career -- uncertain or not?

So maybe poker is gambling for the fish, but not for the pros. I don't know, I'm all twisted up now. I feel I was on to something. Any other ideas on this?

i think its a combination of both, the gambling element goes down the better you are at poker, but there is always an element of gambling involved no matter how good you are, you're always putting your money at risk to win more. its all about reducing the level of gambling and increasing skill levels

fletchdad said:

"Search" button. SOOOO easy to use. And the discussion "Is poker gambling" bores me almost as much as the "Is poker rigged" one. ESPECIALLY since it is started every other month with posters making no effort to find out if the forum may actually in fact have a number of the threads already and, thus, not needed anymore. SO while you certainly have the right to take offense at my boredom - not that I really care either way - I also have the right to


"yawn"

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CC has a search function? Cool. Didnt know that.

fletchdad said:

"Search" button. SOOOO easy to use. And the discussion "Is poker gambling" bores me almost as much as the "Is poker rigged" one. ESPECIALLY since it is started every other month with posters making no effort to find out if the forum may actually in fact have a number of the threads already and, thus, not needed anymore. SO while you certainly have the right to take offense at my boredom - not that I really care either way - I also have the right to
"yawn"

Click to expand...

Ahh yes, the rights speech trumps all. What else can be said but,
Yes, yes, we get it. Youve been here a long time and have discussed folding pocket A's pre-flop a gazillion times. Well done. *clap* *clap*. You're infinitely smarter than the rest of us.

If the thread doesnt interest you, why bother to type "yawn" into the box? You've come across a thread, started reading it, see that a discussion is developing and then have made a choice to type "yawn" in, and press submit. I know its quicker than typing in " I am very clever and have already thought this topic through to its natural conclusion and know the outcome" but its essentially the same thing.

You could give us a list of what topics you think would be acceptable to discuss? Alternatively you could keep new members out so that they dont annoy you with their inane threads.
Oh and maybe - forums are not just about accessing old information - it is also about exchanging ideas and developing relationships. But again you can always restrict new members admission to prevent that happening on topics more than once.