*** January's Juxtaposed Pokahz Chat ***

My ATS is 46.8 atm and operating nicely.

aliengenius said:

Seriously, how is it possible to lose at this level when I'm playing 18.27/12.98/2.91-- wtf, too loose?

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Tightness/looseness (within reasonable boundaries) do not equal automatic winnings/losses. Also, stats checks generally don't help that much even if we have all your stats (detailed, not just your general tab). I'm sure a lot of people can play a 18/13 style profitably, but you could be butchering it or you could be playing that style perfectly but are just running bad. Stats only tell so much.

With that said...your vpip/pfr spread is pretty big. Not a good thing. 3bet or fold more often in general. If you're limping, stop. ATS should be WAY higher.

3bet stats would be helpful, but I see you're using pt2.

Cliff's notes: we can't really tell you exactly what you're doing wrong with so few stats and such a small sample size. From what I can see, close that vpip/pfr spread and steal a ****load more.

100nl FR.

I steal 40% overall, 28% from CO, 54% from BTN, 41% from SB.
It works 62% of the time, 54% from CO, 64% from BTN and 70% from SB.

With that kind of stealing success, you're essentially freerolling when your steals do get called, plus you get to play in a nice pot in position with initiative from CO and BTN.

combuboom said:

in what universe is what he wrote a decent point? it was incoherent and there was no point. at what juncture in the hand did the shrog "mess around" with a little bet? he bet almost pot and then slightly over pot where he'll be getting looked up by tons of worse hands. villain started the hand with $1.95 for christ's sake! 1/5th of a stack. the hand plays itself and it was a bad, empty post on his climb to reach 50 or whatever the requirement is

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I think the advice to be careful with something like trips tens and a crappy kicker is decent. I agree he was not particularly cogent.

I was mostly disgusted with the shameless lambasting. Sure, most of the readers of THIS thread already know T4o could get you in troublle if it hooks up partially. So yeah his badly typed beginner advice is like T4o in this thread... worthless and likely to get you in trouble.

On more than one occasion I have felt like this thread gets quite cliquey and eliteist. But actually it makes sence since it IS CCs elite who hang out here (which is one reason I should be going). I shouldn't let that tilt me as much as it does, but it does...

The Shrog said:

I was only humoring the fact that shortstacks seem imposssssssible to beat. I was in the BB, saw a free flop and turn, and 2-outer comes. It wasn't a BBV, more light humor for this particular thread.

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I totally hear you and winced/giggled when I saw your hand. It was a situation I would likely lose in as well. Shortstacks are like mosquitos.

ChuckTs said:

If you're limping, stop.

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QFMFT

BelgoSuisse said:

QFMFT

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There are basically two spots where I limp: small/mid pairs oop, and suited ace-rags otb when there are limpers in front (and I don't expect a move from the blinds).

aliengenius said:

There are basically two spots where I limp: small/mid pairs oop, and suited ace-rags otb when there are limpers in front (and I don't expect a move from the blinds).

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There are basically two spots where you need to stop limping: small/mid pairs oop, and suited ace-rags otb when there are limpers in front (even if you don't expect a move from the blinds)



For the small/mid pairs, raise them if table is not over-aggressive and fold them otherwise. You won't be able to get your sets paid off properly oop anyway, so you should not set-mine without implied odds.

And when people limp in front of you, you raise to isolate and take it down preflop or with a cbet so often that even if you never hit the board you'll be making a profit.

Take a look at https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/100nl-fr-bread-butter-139654/

You should be doing that all the time.

cAPSLOCK said:

I think the advice to be careful with something like trips tens and a crappy kicker is decent. I agree he was not particularly cogent.

I was mostly disgusted with the shameless lambasting. Sure, most of the readers of THIS thread already know T4o could get you in troublle if it hooks up partially. So yeah his badly typed beginner advice is like T4o in this thread... worthless and likely to get you in trouble.

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dude, he checked from the BB, so talking about how playing crappy cards can get you in trouble is irrelevant. he didn't choose to play the hand. he turned trips vs. a guy with 1/5th of a stack and from that point it's an obvious case of trying to get the money in. it's really like quoting a hand where someone shoves AA preflop and saying "27o should not be played for a raise in texas hold 'em". has nothing to do with what was posted. also it was amusingly incomprehensible. between those two factors, yeah he was bound to get some flak for it. we're terribly sorry that we were amused and joked around about it. won't happen again, sir

and as for your "cliquey" comment.. well, this is the monthly poker chat thread. so yes, those who grind and have poker playing as a larger part of their life than most of the forum are the ones who post here. what would you expect? you could make the same "clique" comment about the regular posters in the daily chat threads in the player's lounge. don't have to be so uptight about it

BelgoSuisse said:

There are basically two spots where you need to stop limping: small/mid pairs oop, and suited ace-rags otb when there are limpers in front (even if you don't expect a move from the blinds)



For the small/mid pairs, raise them if table is not over-aggressive and fold them otherwise. You won't be able to get your sets paid off properly oop anyway, so you should not set-mine without implied odds.

And when people limp in front of you, you raise to isolate and take it down preflop or with a cbet so often that even if you never hit the board you'll be making a profit.

Take a look at https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/100nl-fr-bread-butter-139654/

You should be doing that all the time.

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That's all fine and dandy except when the guy who open limped isn't folding preflop for any raise, and has 33% fold to cbet stats...
Also, isn't that 5% diff going to include times where we cold call? No I don't do it often, but please don't tell me that I should just 3bet instead-- substituting aggression for implied odds doesn't seem like that great of an idea against players who just are not going to fold.

Limping behind is fine under those conditions. Open limping pairs under almost all 6max conditions is terrible.

aliengenius said:

That's all fine and dandy except when the guy who open limped isn't folding preflop for any raise, and has 33% fold to cbet stats...

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Then you check his raise cbet%, fold to turn cbet% and WTSD%.

Fishes who won't give on flop but fold to turn cbet a lot are a gold mine.

Calling station fishes who go to showdown too much are another kind of gold mine that you can valuetown with big hands.

aliengenius said:

substituting aggression for implied odds doesn't seem like that great of an idea against players who just are not going to fold.

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That is actually true. When the fishes' main defect is that they call too much, then you are justified to flat more and 3bet less.

On the other hand, according to my HEM database, I've have a consistent "flop cbet% success" of about 50% at 25nl, 50nl and 100nl, and it was actually up at 57% for the 6000 hands i played at 10nl FR where i was cbetting a ridiculous 80% of flops. So the notion that people don't fold at lower stakes is just not true.

PFR is kinda low AG, att to steal is way too low and fold BB to steal is too low as well for my liking.

aliengenius said:

Also, isn't that 5% diff going to include times where we cold call?

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Yes, that's why ChuckTs plays 24/22 and not 24/24...

BelgoSuisse said:

On the other hand, according to my HEM database, I've have a consistent "flop cbet% success" of about 50% at 25nl, 50nl and 100nl, and it was actually up at 57% for the 6000 hands i played at 10nl FR where i was cbetting a ridiculous 80% of flops. So the notion that people don't fold at lower stakes is just not true.

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I find that almost every database with a decent sample size I have looked at has a flop cbet success of around 50% + or - 2%. NOt sure why that is

Richyl2008 said:

I find that almost every database with a decent sample size I have looked at has a flop cbet success of around 50% + or - 2%. NOt sure why that is

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note quite sure either, but probably because people who have databases with decent sample size are regs, and regs learn how to adapt their cbetting strategy in order to make it profitable, and 50% success when you cbet less than flop means +$$$$$.

Jurn8 said:

are there any articles on player stats on pt3/hem to group player types of villians eg. stats for TAG 13/10/2 etc

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Jake, do a search on here for 'autorate rules' for pokertracker I'm sure theres an article on here about it. If not google it.

i just went 3-0 against a reg, decided to sharkscope them to see if they really were a reg, and they were ranked number 1 for overall profit at my stakes but are clearly no match for me so ship that sugar. Even had him complaining about how he never hits anything against me and how when he does hit i always something better. I was just a better player ldo

Jagsti said:

Jake, do a search on here for 'autorate rules' for pokertracker I'm sure theres an article on here about it. If not google it.

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Also find some links here.

switch0723 said:

i just went 3-0 against a reg, decided to sharkscope them to see if they really were a reg, and they were ranked number 1 for overall profit at my stakes but are clearly no match for me so ship that sugar. Even had him complaining about how he never hits anything against me and how when he does hit i always something better. I was just a better player ldo

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you gonna go all da way to da top kid!

i just went 3-0 against a reg,

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Sorry if I'm out of the loop...are you playing HU cash? Also, keep pounding him. Errr...I mean...win.

Poker can go to hell...

3rd time I raised on the button and it set me up nicely...the guy came over the top everytime i tried to steal and I finally got the dream hand to beat him....seriously poker suks

PokerStars Game #23771387592: Tournament #131676467, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level XVIII (625/1250) - 2009/01/10 17:19:45 ET
Table '131676467 209' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Flameboy023 (16270 in chips)
Seat 2: Kusco 21 (73803 in chips)
Seat 3: GOLDWEST (31920 in chips)
Seat 4: KingCurtis67 (47888 in chips)
Seat 5: FAP 12-13 (41567 in chips)
Seat 6: starsik (20240 in chips)
Seat 7: SkyDiamonds (34057 in chips)
Seat 8: Glofre (15523 in chips)
Seat 9: AceRagWally (11090 in chips)
Flameboy023: posts the ante 150
Kusco 21: posts the ante 150
GOLDWEST: posts the ante 150
KingCurtis67: posts the ante 150
FAP 12-13: posts the ante 150
starsik: posts the ante 150
SkyDiamonds: posts the ante 150
Glofre: posts the ante 150
AceRagWally: posts the ante 150
FAP 12-13: posts small blind 625
starsik: posts big blind 1250
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to KingCurtis67 [As Ad]
SkyDiamonds: folds
Glofre: folds
AceRagWally: folds
Flameboy023: folds
Kusco 21: folds
GOLDWEST: folds
KingCurtis67: raises 2500 to 3750
FAP 12-13: raises 37667 to 41417 and is all-in
starsik: folds
KingCurtis67: calls 37667
*** FLOP *** [Qh 6s 9h]
*** TURN *** [Qh 6s 9h] [3d]
*** RIVER *** [Qh 6s 9h 3d] [Jh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
FAP 12-13: shows [Qd Jc] (two pair, Queens and Jacks)
KingCurtis67: shows [As Ad] (a pair of Aces)
FAP 12-13 collected 85434 from pot
KingCurtis67 said, "SOB"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 85434 | Rake 0
Board [Qh 6s 9h 3d Jh]
Seat 1: Flameboy023 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Kusco 21 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: GOLDWEST folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: KingCurtis67 (button) showed [As Ad] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 5: FAP 12-13 (small blind) showed [Qd Jc] and won (85434) with two pair, Queens and Jacks
Seat 6: starsik (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: SkyDiamonds folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Glofre folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: AceRagWally folded before Flop (didn't bet)

That's rough KC...ul man. Keep goin, you're due for another big MTT win imo.

God there is nothing better than grinding up a + 2BI session in about an hour, then lose KK < AA AIPF all three times within 15 minutes and all for stacks.

I played some $3/$6 today, but I'm convinced it's still cursed. One simply cannot win at Stars $3/$6, I've tried time and time again

So, I ended up back at $5/$10 and figured it can't be that bad to get used to this level. And I really am getting used to it. I feel very confident about my game, there are plenty of mediocre regs, a bunch of fish and absolutely nothing I need to be scared about as long as keep it together.
Over 3,000 or so hands, I only broke even but considering the amount of coolers I suffered, I'm very happy with the result. Somewhat surprisingly, I play a bit loser than I used to at lower stakes. 25/20 seems to work out pretty well for me.

Played some with Leatherass, but he appears to spend more time switching tables these days than playing actual hands. Also, he's a nit.