***Jumpstarting January Chat Thread***

[Jurn8]

what information did your bet get?

he will probs call Ax/10x to a turn bet, if you think a strong part of his range is a FD which then hits I dont see why we are betting if you are 100% certain he has it whats the point in better just check back and try get to showdown.

Pot is small on the turn but your still betting which is inflating the pot when we dont want to, it may be a small bet but the pot is still growing whereas if we check we are keeping it small.

 

[eNTy]

if hes just calling 2 streets hes actually more passive than "over agressive"

/nitpicking

 

[eNTy]

how have i not posted in this thread until now? it is a mystery

i seem to remember a convo on aim where u said u were an enigma wrapped in a mystery wrapped in a burrito.

or maybe that was with vanq
i dont remember

 

[LuckyChippy]

An hour and 20mins, 1000 hands and +4 buy-ins makes me a happy boy. Shame it was at 5nl instead of 10nl, but meh.

I did run like god though, and it's probably only me getting carried away that stopped it from being +6.

 

[LuckyChippy]

I'm going to showdown about 30% of the time and when i'm running ok winning about 50% maybe a bit less, is that good or bad?

 

[KingCurtis]

It feels so good to be back!!

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Welcome back KC! And thanks again.

 

[KingCurtis]

LOL, i had to call


Full Tilt poker game #17463669911: $3 + $0.30 Knockout (131110431), Table 1 - 250/500 Ante 50 - No Limit Hold'em - 13:44:50 ET - 2010/01/09
Seat 1: xxPunchy111 (2,500)
Seat 2: xxChipaJones (19,614)
Seat 3: xxNicibud (24,074)
Seat 4: xxEndo_n_me (15,360)
Seat 5: xxMike Denis (27,984)
Seat 6: xxryanmonkey (11,756)
Seat 7: xxJOYE13 (24,142)
Seat 8: xxBROWNDOG12 (42,733)
Seat 9: xxdeedee1948 (39,078)
xxPunchy111 antes 50
xxChipaJones antes 50
xxNicibud antes 50
xxEndo_n_me antes 50
xxMike Denis antes 50
xxryanmonkey antes 50
xxJOYE13 antes 50
xxBROWNDOG12 antes 50
xxdeedee1948 antes 50
xxPunchy111 posts the small blind of 250
xxChipaJones posts the big blind of 500
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to xxChipaJones [Ts Tc]
xxNicibud has 15 seconds left to act
xxNicibud has timed out
xxNicibud folds
xxNicibud is sitting out
xxxEndo_n_me folds
xxMike Denis folds
xfolds
xxJOYE13 folds
xxNicibud has returned
xxBROWNDOG12 folds
xxdeedee1948 folds
xxPunchy111 raises to 2,450, and is all in
xxChipaJones calls 1,950
xxPunchy111 shows [As Ac]
xxChipaJones shows [Ts Tc]
*** FLOP *** [Td Th 4h]
*** TURN *** [Td Th 4h] [9c]
*** RIVER *** [Td Th 4h 9c] [4d]
xxPunchy111 shows two pair, Aces and Tens
ChipaJones shows four of a kind, Tens
ChipaJones wins the pot (5,350) with four of a kind, Tens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5,350 | Rake 0
Board: [Td Th 4h 9c 4d]
Seat 1: Punchy111 (small blind) showed [As Ac] and lost with two pair, Aces and Tens
Seat 2: ChipaJones (big blind) showed [Ts Tc] and won (5,350) with four of a kind, Tens

 

[S93]

Misread the board?


--------------------
HAND 1
--------------------
$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
Poker Tools by Stoxpoker - Hand Details

CO: $35.45 (141.8 bb)
Hero (BTN): $27.55 (110.2 bb)
SB: $34.25 (137 bb)
BB: $25 (100 bb)
UTG: $26.50 (106 bb)
MP: $38.65 (154.6 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with A:spade: J:diamond:
2 folds, CO raises to $0.85, Hero calls $0.85, 2 folds
Flop: ($2.05) T:diamond: K:diamond: Q:diamond: (2 players)
CO bets $1.55, Hero raises to $5, CO raises to $34.60 and is all-in, Hero calls $21.70 and is all-in
Turn: ($55.45) 5:diamond: (2 players, 2 are all-in)
River: ($55.45) K:heart: (2 players, 2 are all-in)
Results:[spoil] $55.45 pot ($2.75 rake)
Final Board: T:diamond: K:diamond: Q:diamond: 5:diamond: K:heart:
CO showed 8:club: 9:club: (a pair of Kings) and lost (-$27.55 net)
Hero showed A:spade: J:diamond: (a flush, King high) and won $52.70 ($25.15 net)
[/spoil]

 

[Kasanova King]

what information did your bet get?

he will probs call Ax/10x to a turn bet, if you think a strong part of his range is a FD which then hits I dont see why we are betting if you are 100% certain he has it whats the point in better just check back and try get to showdown.

Pot is small on the turn but your still betting which is inflating the pot when we dont want to, it may be a small bet but the pot is still growing whereas if we check we are keeping it small.

At that point I wasn't 100% certain, about 80%. I had seen him raise his flush draws before and also fold to a turn bet if he had missed, etc. My bet actually had 2 reasons, the first was for information, which by him smooth calling, pretty much solidfied the fact he had hit his hand, and the second was to see if he would just fold, which he did not.

Also, there was no way that this guy was going to showdown with that hand without a big river bet which I would have wanted to call - so the turn bet would have saved me some money if it was not for the misclick.

 

[Kasanova King]

Shouldnt bets be for a)value or b)a bluff, 'betting for information' is the same as 'seeing where i was at' which is a donk reason to bet imo


No wonder half your BR's gone your playing on those crazy musical chairs tables, turn them off in the filters imo deep tables only ftw!

I'n not sure what limits you play or how long you've been playing or what type of poker you play but betting for information is a big part of poker, especially when you play live.

And no, it wasn't a "seeing where I was at" bet. That's more along the lines of having a really weak hand like mid pair and making a move like that.

I had a rather decent hand (Top two pair) going into the river - which would have been very tempting to call with if he had made a big river bet. This giy was a VERY, VERY donkish player. I had seen him both raise his flush draws ( or medocre hands) and also fold to a turn bet, when he thinks he is beat or drawinng dead. I had also seen him make big river bluff bets as well as big river bets when he had the nuts. By him smooth calling, it verified the fact that he had a made hand, therefore no reason to call a river bet. My read was 100% accurate, btw - I found out the hard way by my misclick, lol.

 

[F Paulsson]

betting for information is a big part of poker

I don't think this is true. I'm trying really really hard to come up with a situation in which I'd spend a bet of any kind with the primary intention of gaining information, and I can't. Sure, I gain information from their next action (and that's always nice) but it's never ever the primary reason I bet. At the very least I question that it's a "big" part of poker. Sometimes I bet small on the turn with the intention of folding because a raise almost always means I'm behind, and if I'm called I have the intention of checking back the river. But of course, the bet is for value; if I didn't think I'd get called by worse or at least force some fold equity, I wouldn't make the bet. That's the closest to an "information" bet I can come, and "information" is a weak third on the list as to why I make it.

So no, it's not a "big" part of poker. Gaining and leveraging information on your opponent is a big part of poker, but making bets with the intention of getting that information isn't a major factor.

 

[S93]

Betting for information in any poker game(excepted in very certain situations in fixed limit games) is allways bad, no matter how u try to justify it imo.
Like Peelio said if your gonna bet have a reason and the only (good) reasons i know of to bet are:
a)For value-What worse hand calls?
b)As a bluff-what better hand folds?
c)For protection-what draws am i scared off?

It just doesnt compute, why bet, to see if he has the flush if u could just aswell check back, see and call a river(asuming he bets) for the same(or similar price asuming he doesnt overbet) price with the added benifite of keeping in his weak hands so we actualy fair better against his range.

Edit: Or u can just ignore my post and listen to FP since he is the man .

 

[Suited Frenzy]

As Gus says, "ups" "ups" & as Doyle says, "that's poker folks"...

I prob should've shoved on this 1st hand. Don't you just love the flat here w/ only 3k behind LOL

Full Tilt, 500/1,000 blinds, 125 ante NL Hold'em Tourney, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

BB: 52,742 (52.7 bb)
UTG+2: 39,012 (39 bb)
MP1: 4,995 (5 bb)
Hero (MP2): 12,275 (12.3 bb)
MP3: 17,800 (17.8 bb)
CO: 7,585 (7.6 bb)
BTN: 9,430 (9.4 bb)
SB: 12,607 (12.6 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP2 with Q

Q

2 folds, Hero raises to 4,500, MP3 folds, CO calls 4,500, 3 folds

Flop: (11,500) 6

8

5

(2 players)
Hero bets 7,650 and is all-in, CO calls 2,960 and is all-in

Turn: (17,420) 2

(2 players, 2 are all-in)
River: (17,420) K

(2 players, 2 are all-in)
Results: 17,420 pot
Hero showed Q

Q

(a pair of Queens) and lost (-7,585 net)
CO showed A

T

(a flush, Ace high) and won 17,420 (9,835 net)

2nd "ups" "ups" & "that's poker folks"...

Full Tilt, 800/1,600 blinds, 200 ante NL Hold'em Tourney, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

Hero (UTG+1): 18,355 (11.5 bb)
UTG+2: 7,040 (4.4 bb)
BTN: 12,437 (7.8 bb)
SB: 16,149 (10.1 bb)
BB: 36,832 (23 bb)
MP1: 13,275 (8.3 bb)
MP2: 78,547 (49.1 bb)
MP3: 29,274 (18.3 bb)
CO: 14,591 (9.1 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is UTG+1 with K

K

MP1 raises to 13,075 and is all-in, 3 folds, Hero raises to 18,155 and is all-in, 4 folds

Flop: (30,350) 2

3

9

(2 players, 2 are all-in)
Turn: (30,350) J

(2 players, 2 are all-in)
River: (30,350) 8

(2 players, 2 are all-in)
Results: 30,350 pot
Hero showed K

K

(a pair of Kings) and lost (-13,275 net)
MP1 showed J

J

(three of a kind, Jacks) and won 30,350 (17,075 net)

 

[WVHillbilly]

I'n not sure what limits you play or how long you've been playing or what type of poker you play but betting for information is a big part of poker, especially when you play bad.

And no, it wasn't a "seeing where I was at" bet. That's more along the lines of having a really weak hand like mid pair and making a move like that.

I had a rather decent hand (Top two pair) going into the river - which would have been very tempting to call with if he had made a big river bet. This giy was a VERY, VERY donkish player. I had seen him both raise his flush draws ( or medocre hands) and also fold to a turn bet, when he thinks he is beat or drawinng dead. I had also seen him make big river bluff bets as well as big river bets when he had the nuts. By him smooth calling, it verified the fact that he had a made hand, therefore no reason to call a river bet. My read was 100% accurate, btw - I found out the hard way by my misclick, lol.

fyp

 

[Kasanova King]

I don't think this is true. I'm trying really really hard to come up with a situation in which I'd spend a bet of any kind with the primary intention of gaining information, and I can't. Sure, I gain information from their next action (and that's always nice) but it's never ever the primary reason I bet. At the very least I question that it's a "big" part of poker. Sometimes I bet small on the turn with the intention of folding because a raise almost always means I'm behind, and if I'm called I have the intention of checking back the river. But of course, the bet is for value; if I didn't think I'd get called by worse or at least force some fold equity, I wouldn't make the bet. That's the closest to an "information" bet I can come, and "information" is a weak third on the list as to why I make it.

So no, it's not a "big" part of poker. Gaining and leveraging information on your opponent is a big part of poker, but making bets with the intention of getting that information isn't a major factor.

Ok, so if you want to call it a value bet, then I'm ok with that - I did also bet to see if he would fold, which I had see him do before, like I said....so call it whatever you want, it's a very effective move that works for me. Not only that, there still was a half decent chance at the time that I had the best hand, when he smooth called, I knew I didn't anymore - so I guess it was a value bet.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

I don't think this is true.

+1.

The first chapter of belugawhale's book (Easy Game, part 1) has a nice summary of the reasons to bet. Essentially he identifies 3 good reasons to bet

1. for value (i.e. to get called by hands we beat)
2. as a bluff (i.e. to fold hands that beat us)
3. to capitalize on the dead money (i.e. fold hands that we may beat but that still have equity in the hand)

and then he goes on and asks "what about betting for information?". And his conclusion is quite definitive on that: "If we're betting for information instead of one of the 3 reasons, we're usually isolating ourselves with better hands and folding out worse hands. In short, we're making mistakes and our opponent isn't. And that's bad."

 

[tenbob]

Night hits breakeven at last

Hero (BB): $58.85 (117.7 bb)
UTG: $57.65 (115.3 bb)
UTG+1: $42.90 (85.8 bb)
MP1: $8.50 (17 bb)
MP2: $50 (100 bb)
MP3: $53.90 (107.8 bb)
CO: $10 (20 bb)
BTN: $16.20 (32.4 bb)
SB: $25.20 (50.4 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BB with 6

5

UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, MP3 raises to $1, CO folds, BTN calls $1, SB folds, Hero calls $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50

Flop: ($4.25) 4

2

3

(4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $3, MP3 folds, BTN calls $3, Hero raises to $57.85 and is all-in, UTG+1 calls $38.90 and is all-in, BTN calls $12.20 and is all-in

Turn: ($103.25) 5

(3 players, 3 are all-in)
River: ($103.25) 8

(3 players, 3 are all-in)

Results: $103.25 pot ($3 rake)
Final Board: 4

2

3

5

8

Hero showed 6

5

(a straight, Two to Six) and won $100.25 ($57.35 net)
UTG+1 showed 2

2

(three of a kind, Twos) and lost (-$42.90 net)
BTN showed 5

5

(three of a kind, Fives) and lost (-$16.20 net)

 

[Kasanova King]

+1.

The first chapter of belugawhale's book (Easy Game, part 1) has a nice summary of the reasons to bet. Essentially he identifies 3 good reasons to bet

1. for value (i.e. to get called by hands we beat)
2. as a bluff (i.e. to fold hands that beat us)
3. to capitalize on the dead money (i.e. fold hands that we may beat but that still have equity in the hand)

and then he goes on and asks "what about betting for information?". And his conclusion is quite definitive on that: "If we're betting for information instead of one of the 3 reasons, we're usually isolating ourselves with better hands and folding out worse hands. In short, we're making mistakes and our opponent isn't. And that's bad."

Let me clear a few things up. I only may make a feeler bet when I'm facing a donky/fish and am aware of his betting patterns and styles. If I'm facing a solid opponent, I would not just put my money in the pot to gain info. Not to mention that there was a pretty good chance that I had him beat at the time, since the guy was very loose/donkish/fishy player. When he smooth called I knew I was beat and was ready to give up the hand on the river, therefore saving me from giving up even more money when he would lay out a big river bet that I would be almost forced to call b/c the guy is a fishy donk and would bet mid pair like that.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

... donky/fish ... very loose/donkish/fishy ... fishy donk

I don't think a recreational player like you should use this kind of language when referring to other recreational players.

 

[Kasanova King]

I don't think a recreational player like you should use this kind of language when referring to other recreational players.

Not a recreational player, thanks for the advice

I make most of my money playing live - average about $700.00 a week in profit. I play online to learn the game more and have challenged myself to build a BR starting out with a $25 deposit. So far I have buily it up to about $100 in 2 weeks. I'll let you know how far I get.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Let me clear a few things up. I only may make a feeler bet when I'm facing a donky/fish and am aware of his betting patterns and styles. If I'm facing a solid opponent, I would not just put my money in the pot to gain info. Not to mention that there was a pretty good chance that I had him beat at the time, since the guy was very loose/donkish/fishy player. When he smooth called I knew I was beat and was ready to give up the hand on the river, therefore saving me from giving up even more money when he would lay out a big river bet that I would be almost forced to call b/c the guy is a fishy donk and would bet mid pair like that.

So what you're trying to say is that you made the bet knowing it would only ever be called by a better hand? Therefore betting for information. Therefore not betting for value or as a bluff.

Now armed with this new found information, reread the last 20 posts.

 

[Kasanova King]

So what you're trying to say is that you made the bet knowing it would only ever be called by a better hand? Therefore betting for information. Therefore not betting for value or as a bluff.

Now armed with this new found information, reread the last 20 posts.

No, genius, I bet b/c I thought there may have been a chance I was still ahead. So the bet was for BOTH information and possibly value. When he smooth called I knew I was beat. I think I've said that 10 times in the last 20 posts...:deal:

 

[PC69]

KK u should really really listen to what these folks are telling you.. Some of us argued with them in the past and guess what? There right.. There smart ppl who are way better than us..

Be quiet and soak in the information there trying to get us to absorb

 

[WVHillbilly]

No, genius, I bet b/c I thought there may have been a chance I was still ahead. So the bet was for BOTH information and possibly value. When he smooth called I knew I was beat. I think I've said that 10 times in the last 20 posts...:deal:

If the highlighted text is true, how was it a bet for value???