The Paradoxical Nature of Giving Good Advice On Public Poker Forums

atlantafalcons0 said:

I don't know how to tie my shoes, but if I teach someone how to tie thier shoes - I'll get better at tying my own shoes.

How stupid.

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That comment was stupid. You know he wasn't saying that if you don't know a damn thing about poker, then trying to teach someone else is going to make you better. When you know something about anything(be it a sport, a topic, a hobby) going through it with someone else is going to make you better. Teaching can be a form of practice. It gets your mind thinking more in depth than you would be if you weren't doing it, and sometimes, the people who you are discussing whatever topic may say something that shows you something new that you've never noticed before.

Who is going to get better at something, the person who discusses those topics by teaching someone and learning from that student as well, or the person who just sits there and doesn't discuss anything positive with anyone or doesn't take others' input?

atlantafalcons0 said:

I don't know how to tie my shoes, but if I teach someone how to tie thier shoes - I'll get better at tying my own shoes.

How stupid.

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Going to vote this for TOTM award. TrollOfTheMonth. C'mon af at least try to add something constructive once in awhile.

atlantafalcons0 said:

I don't know how to tie my shoes, but if I teach someone how to tie thier shoes - I'll get better at tying my own shoes.

How stupid.

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It would force you to address your own shoe tying issues and at least be able to explain the theory behind laces. So yes trying to teach someone to tie their shoes should make you a better shoe tire.

There is always Velcro if it proves too difficult.

Stu_Ungar said:

It would force you to address your own shoe tying issues and at least be able to explain the theory behind laces. So yes trying to teach someone to tie their shoes should make you a better shoe tire.

There is always Velcro if it proves too difficult.

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or Slippers or Pumps

atlantafalcons0 said:

I don't know how to tie my shoes, but if I teach someone how to tie thier shoes - I'll get better at tying my own shoes.

How stupid.

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Idiotic is more what you mean, given my previous statement re some dicey plays I witnessed from a certain player LOL. No need for sniping, try to get revenge at the tables rather than troll if you must.

absoluthamm said:

That comment was stupid. You know he wasn't saying that if you don't know a damn thing about poker, then trying to teach someone else is going to make you better. When you know something about anything(be it a sport, a topic, a hobby) going through it with someone else is going to make you better. Teaching can be a form of practice. It gets your mind thinking more in depth than you would be if you weren't doing it, and sometimes, the people who you are discussing whatever topic may say something that shows you something new that you've never noticed before.

Who is going to get better at something, the person who discusses those topics by teaching someone and learning from that student as well, or the person who just sits there and doesn't discuss anything positive with anyone or doesn't take others' input?

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Right. If you have to teach world history next term, you better start learning as much as you can!! Also, I find when teaching (in general) I often learn a lot from my 'students' along the way.

DawgBones said:

Going to vote this for TOTM award. TrollOfTheMonth. C'mon af at least try to add something constructive once in awhile.

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+1

Stu_Ungar said:

It would force you to address your own shoe tying issues and at least be able to explain the theory behind laces. So yes trying to teach someone to tie their shoes should make you a better shoe tier.

There is always Velcro if it proves too difficult.

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Yes well said. If you are teaching something new or old, you look at it from new perspectives to help people get a handle on it (and you increase your focus on the subject).

A little different than everything said. I understand that people help each other because they want more of a challenge and less donk play during their poker sessions.

Not everyone is only interested in money, for me, the reward of making a good player fold his trips when I have air just because I acted correctly and made this person believe what I wanted him to believe is much more exhilarating in itself than the money I win... When I make and incredibly tough call with my top pair weak kicker just because I read that good player it also makes me feel great(like C9 said, that I'm superior to you in that game or in that field).

To me that's what poker's all about, these 2 specific moments and the reward you get from playing right, and the punishment you suffer from playing wrong! That's what's so great when you play with real powerful players who know the game and who can sometimes see right through you!

The problem with online poker is that many times you get punished for making the right play (just because it's 2 complex for the fishies to understand) and you might get rewarded for making a bad play (just because the fishies are, well, dumb and they fold to your tiny bet in the end when you were soaking in shit for the rest of the play)

If we could make the online community a little more aware, then maybe we would have a more beautiful and challenging game rather than the idiot who calls your trips all-in when he has a runner runner straight draw and then proceeds to tell you that you suck and that he read your "bluff!" WHAT BLUFF?!!??

ok i get it you want to win money from them and all but seriously, u can find it really interesting to win it from a very tough player and u'll enjoy it more !

absoluthamm said:

just make your username diferent than it is on the poker sites you play on...

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^^ I recommend this approach, which is exactly what I do myself. This way, I can write quite freely here at CC without any fear that the opponent at my table will recall (or Google) anything that I might have written about my playing style and use it against me.

I don`t believe there is any chance that my puny efforts are contributing in any significant way to making the game more difficult overall. Sklansky, Harrington, and half a dozen other professional writers have provided far more education for the fish than I ever could.

I write occasional strategy pieces for CC because I see it as paying my dues here. I have made good friends here and had a lot of fun. If I can write something that other members find useful or interesting, it goes some way to repaying the debt.

You have to realise that you need to balance your range. Mix in some good advice with bad advice so nobody can get a read on your postings.

MrEpic94 said:

I have 6 friends who I know in real life who all got into playing online poker because they saw how well i have been doing. Not realizing the time and effort spent educating myself which they dont do for themselves. They are all loosing players playing at various stakes.

Hopefully by helping you beat the micros, your friends will do the same thing as mine.

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sick brag imo

marginal said:

You have to realise that you need to balance your range. Mix in some good advice with bad advice so nobody can get a read on your postings.

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So we all should polarize our post ranges,marginal is leveling this thread.

Poker Orifice said:

sick brag imo

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i thought so, only taken 18 years of hard work to get 6! heres to 40 by the time im your age

MrEpic94 said:

i thought so, only taken 18 years of hard work to get 6! heres to 40 by the time im your age

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I guess I'll have to be the one to break this to you. As you get older you get less 'friends' and more 'aquaintences'.

Sorry.

If you've ever played CC tourneys or league games, you will realize that it helps only so much to know how the regulars here play. For one thing, some people are really good at mixing up their games and often come out on top. Some are steady and consistent. Others, like me, are often playing a bit on tilt. It doesn't really matter, to me, that I know what the correct play might be. I just sometimes cannot bring myself to make that correct play, whether the correct play is fold or shove. At least half the time, I'll choose the wrong thing. I'll chicken out on the shove. I'll love my hand too much to fold. Sometimes that will miraculously work out.

What I'm saying is that you can only teach others so much. At some point, they have to put what they are learning into play. I'm proof that this doesn't always happen. And there are maybe millions of players who don't even try to learn more than the basics. (And, sometimes, not even that.) There are always going to be a goodly number of people you can beat, if you get good.

So you don't really need to worry about this.

c9h13no3 said:

No one ever says this, but its also an ego boost to help people. Helping someone innately means you're superior to them, at least in that specific area.

So yeah, people help others because:

1) It makes them feel good, since they've done a good deed.
2) It makes them feel superior to that person, ego boost.
3) They were helped in a similar way.
4) It helps them become a better player, and understand their own game more.

And yes, the games have gotten tougher. I've never played on Party, but I did play on Ultimatebet back when the poker boom was still going. I remember having discussions with my brother that AJo was an all-in preflop hand in a $2NL cash game, because there were so many idiots shoving so wide. That's not the case anymore. But the games are still plenty soft, mostly because advice will only get you so far. The majority of the people who play poker don't have the ability to execute the advice given to them.

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Great post. +1 ego boost to you, good sir!

I wanted to reply to this earlier, but was under 65 posts at the time and hit my daily posting cap. Now that I'm a normal CC member I'm coming back to this.

I actually do remember playing a little during the poker boom (2001-2003) on Party... fun times. Unfortunately, I was a poor university student studying too much and didn't want to risk what little cash and time I had on a possibly addicting habit such as internet poker, so I didn't let myself get really into it. I wish I had known about freerolls and bankroll management back then (maybe the online freerolls didn't even exist yet?)

I'm not an authority on this at all, but this was an interesting question it intrigued me. I asked my friend (he plays pretty regularly), and he said he gives advice because it's good karma, mentoring is fun and a natural thing for a human to want to do, and that it actually promotes good online poker. Even though good advice does make the player pool better, it also makes the games more interesting and fun because everybody is so damn good.

Advice

I have found in the past that when I have given or have thought
about giving advice to someone it makes me think more about my
own game and to think more analytically about the moves I make and
why I make them, and anything that makes me do that can only help
my game

So I think that helping someone else is a mutually beneficial thing
to do and I think it would be a lot poorer world if no-one ever gave
someone a helping hand because there is a slight possibility they
might one day bite the hand that feeds them

I have helped players in the past and always will

It is my view that among players of similar aptitude, the better player is the one who is willing to accept the larger amount of risk. The best players are gamblers first. Doyle Brunson did not become great by knowing poker math; he was the one who would get as much of his money as possible into the pot when it counted.

The % of players at micro stakes who:

-even think about looking for resources online to improve is tiny.

-search anything more specific than "how to get good at poker" on google, skim through 1 page and forget it within 5 minutes is tinier.

-find a forum like cardschat or 2+2 and read up on parts of their game that sucked is smaller yet again.

-actively participate on forums to improve their game...insignifcant

well then what does that make me, I have played micro stakes for the most part the whole time I have played online poker and I have done all the things you listed in your post, heck I even invested in Poker Tracker 3, does this make me insignificant when searching this forum for advise on improving my game? I don't get a lot of seat time at a poker table online or otherwise, so when I do sit at a table, (cash or tournament), I have to make my time count. Please keep in mind that some of us micro players are just trying to become profitable just like the higher staked players, and yes some of us do take poker seriously.

If anyone would be so kind, I could really use some help here https://www.cardschat.com/forum/general-poker-13/running-bad-185172/

I can return the favor in many ways, I'm a winning player with much live and online exp, but this one I can't seem to get much info on and I'm at a loss anymore.

So if anyone can point me to some advice, I'd be more then willing to offer help with anything else. Thanks

curly said:

well then what does that make me, I have played micro stakes for the most part the whole time I have played online poker and I have done all the things you listed in your post, heck I even invested in Poker Tracker 3, does this make me insignificant when searching this forum for advise on improving my game? I don't get a lot of seat time at a poker table online or otherwise, so when I do sit at a table, (cash or tournament), I have to make my time count. Please keep in mind that some of us micro players are just trying to become profitable just like the higher staked players, and yes some of us do take poker seriously.

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Curly, read Aldito's comments again and you'll see that he/she (?) is actually complimenting you for being in the minority of players who do take poker seriously.

Having been active on CC for a few months, and as a casual, micro player, I can promise you that folks here show a lot of respect for us "newbies." They share amazing amounts of knowledge and show a lot of patience when we ask the same questions over and over. I think there is a little bit (and correctly) of waiting and seeing if a new poster is serious or just trying to up the posting count to be able to play the freerolls. But once you have shown yourself to be serious and thoughtful, you'll find a very gracious and instructive group of people here.

For my own $.02, there is a lot of information available, and a player who takes time, real time, to review and learn will improve (I know I have). But many players just want to have fun on a casual basis and they won't want to take the time to learn and really improve. So I don't believe that any instruction in a public post is going to make the (potential) profits lower for the rest of us.

And so far, anyone who looks me up on Google isn't going to figure out my style because most of my posts so far don't exactly compliment my playing style! It's a tough learning curve!

I guess when I read it, I took it the wrong way, I apologize to Aldito for getting the wrong idea and going off on a rant like that.

WVHillbilly said:

Helping others helps your own game a lot, probably more than the person you are helping.

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In order to teach a thing, you need to understand a thing. The first time anyone teaches a thing he most likely fails miserably, and learns that he failed miserably. This will focus his thinking about what he knows about a thing into becoming a more coherent knowledge. That process, which every thinking human can do, is the 'makes me better' part of the equation. To take this a step further, since most of us have NOT refined our thinking about our games, or anything we consider ourselves proficient in, we join a forum, which is similar to a think tank, or seminar, where we float ideas, get feedback, and our understanding of any issue, poker or otherwise, is broadened.

So teaching a thing is relearning a thing.

TheKAAHK said:

As you get older you get less 'friends' and more 'acquaintances'.

Sorry.

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For you younger players this is re-quoted for truth. aka QFT.


When I first picked up Super System, I wondered why Doyle would print such a thing. It caused an up roar in the poker world, and I can remember a friend who had it on his shelf recoiled when I asked about it.

What good could come from someone giving these major secrets away? There really isn't a whole lot of difference between what Doyle did way back then, and what forums are doing now. Except that forums add in a lot of comfort food in the live interactions realm.

I believe it has some genetic component to it. The successful strain of the breed does things which encourage the group to survive. Lack of co-operation will doom a species. Successful groups will compete against other groups in every ecosystem and a winner will be had, or some sort of balance will occur. Or a symbiosis will arise where one group finds it needs and benefits from the continued existence of another group. So in Doyle's case, he benefitted from the influx of new players who joined the game after reading a chapter or 2 of Super Systems, and they were his fish.

So why share this info? I believe the overall benefits to the more experienced will prevail.

But still, in the back of my mind, I wonder about it all being a grand Ponzi scheme.......

Not all "teachers" have altruistic" motives! Win at poker...gain $10,000....write a book about winning at poker....profit $1,000,000! :dancing:

The most benefit comes to all when it is a two way street.

Mostly it is about everyone contributing various ideas and each being able to take from it what is useful to them, or perhaps view some things differently.

There are only a few who have such a high opinion of themselves that they wont learn anything.

But for most people it is good to discuss, share, learn and at the same time enjoy the exchange of information in a friendly environment.