SUNGLASSES IN POKER: Maybe douchey, but cheating?

NCfoldem · May 15, 2010

Invisible Ink? Egads, now what? I agree. Don't use invisibile ink. What was the question again ... ?

tilt position · May 15, 2010

definitely not cheating.
sometimes a bit douchy, but in a big live game, i'll use every advantage i can have

tbdbitl · May 15, 2010

I wanted to change my vote after I voted. I saw that I voted that I could care less--which means I care some. Well, I don't care. I couldn't care less.

The eyes give out hardly any info compared to other things a player does. I see it as the same advantage that I see when at the beach for a day. It masks where I am looking!

D_russo88 · May 15, 2010

No that's not cheating. I if you had a bad poker face you could use them so people wouldn't realize that your hand sucks. But thats not really cheating.

OzExorcist · May 15, 2010

*facepalm*

Please read the other posts and watch the videos people - it's the potential for players using sunglasses with special filters so they can see invisible ink marks on the back of cards that's the issue here, not wearing sunglasses in general.

Don't think that's likely to happen very often, BTW? You're right, it's probably not. But how often do players really text-message the contents of their hands to their friend on the other side of the table? More often than people mark cards with invisible ink, sure, but it'll still be rare. Despite this, most casinos still won't let you use your mobile phone (or cell phone, if that's your dialect) during a hand. So there's a precedent for removing certain freedoms from all players on the basis that a small number of them might abuse them for cheating.

Kenzie 96 · May 15, 2010

Stick66 said:
+1

I even like to accent my sunglasses with a funky fedora and sometimes even a touristy loud Hawaiian shirt. :icon_geek :icon_geek

So, your sayin you dress this way at the poker tables also?

Stick66 · May 15, 2010

OzExorcist said:
*facepalm*

Please read the other posts and watch the videos people - it's the potential for players using sunglasses with special filters so they can see invisible ink marks on the back of cards that's the issue here, not wearing sunglasses in general.

If you mean the OP and poll (mine), then no, I wasn't referring to the potential for cheating with special glasses. If you mean the direction the last half of this thread has ventured, then yes, you are correct.

OzExorcist said:
Don't think that's likely to happen very often, BTW? You're right, it's probably not. But how often do players really text-message the contents of their hands to their friend on the other side of the table? More often than people mark cards with invisible ink, sure, but it'll still be rare. Despite this, most casinos still won't let you use your mobile phone (or cell phone, if that's your dialect) during a hand. So there's a precedent for removing certain freedoms from all players on the basis that a small number of them might abuse them for cheating.

Agreed. Possible, but extremely rare.

Stick66 · May 15, 2010

Kenzie 96 said:
So, your sayin you dress this way at the poker tables also?

Umm, yes? And no, I wasn't drunk. Those are water bottles.

(JQ took the pic after she called me the "Poker Pimp".

)

****
BTW, this pic with caption is 2 years old. I meant the caption to be stupid & funny at that time. Kinda ironic that the caption by itself as it applies to sunglasses fits this thread now and even carries an actual opinion of what's cool in poker & what isn't. As for the subject in the pic, goofy is as goofy does I guess.

IcyBlueAce · May 16, 2010

TPC said:
Daniel Negreanu isn't exactly saying wearing sunglasses is cheating, he's saying they can be used to cheat. Here is a video he put up on his twitter page.

YouTube- marked cards dominoes poker at cheating

This would only be possible to do in home games.

salim271 · May 16, 2010

I remember watching HSP, seems Daniel isnt the only one. Most of the players on that show dont like people wearing sunglasses, I believe Tom Dwan said it was ok for TV with all the bright lights, but thats it. It was one of the last episodes of season 6, cant remember which though.

cAPSLOCK · May 16, 2010

My 02(nl)

I also thought on HSP that the players were kinda talking about people cheating with the polarized dyes etc.

I think wearing sunglasses is fine. I don't generally do it. But I have always thought people who think it is douchy are busybodies.

Poker is a lot of things... sometimes live poker is selling an image. Sunglasses do something to that end. So be it.

OzExorcist · May 16, 2010

IcyBlueAce said:
This would only be possible to do in home games.

That's probably true for marking to the extent shown in the video, but the truth is you don't need to mark the deck in that much detail in order to gain an unfair advantage.

All someone has to do is get a generic mark or smudge onto the back of, say, every ace in the deck using the invisible ink and they've got a huge advantage over the rest of the table. That's certainly something you could do that without anyone at the table knowing, probably even in a casino. Security would probably work it out eventually but a bunch of people would have lost money in the meantime.

IcyBlueAce · May 16, 2010

OzExorcist said:
That's probably true for marking to the extent shown in the video, but the truth is you don't need to mark the deck in that much detail in order to gain an unfair advantage.

All someone has to do is get a generic mark or smudge onto the back of, say, every ace in the deck using the invisible ink and they've got a huge advantage over the rest of the table. That's certainly something you could do that without anyone at the table knowing, probably even in a casino. Security would probably work it out eventually but a bunch of people would have lost money in the meantime.

I understand that, but think about this.. You get banned from any casino and walk in the next day, usually within 10 seconds cameras have already identified you and the next thing you know your being escorted out the door...

Since casinos has technology for that, why wouldn't they for marked cards? At my casino in the poker area their is a camera every foot or so, and I'm pretty sure I read some article about this where cameras or the shuffling machines will be able to detect (or "wash") any markings.

I found also:

Eyes in the Sky
Most casinos have an extensive array of cameras and recorders which monitor and record all the action in a casino. Some casinos use facial recognition software to detect known cheats or card counters/advantage players as they enter the casino.
Software
Casinos use software to analyze game play to uncover any unusual betting patterns or winning patterns and thus discern cheaters (as well as non-cheating card counters and "advantage players").

OzExorcist · May 17, 2010

This is all true.

Keep in mind though that when they're talking about card counting and analysing betting patterns and everything they're talking almost exclusively about table games, not poker. Since the house takes the same amount regardless of the outcome of each pot casinos have a lot less motivation to catch cheats in poker than they do cheats in games where it's their own money on the line.

Don't get me wrong, they still look out for cheats they'll probably still be caught. Against this system it'd probably just take installing a camera with the same filters the cheaters use in their sunglasses above every table. But there will always be people that think they're smarter than the system or that they can get away with it. Some of them will probably get away with it for a while and until they get caught they'll be cheating legit players out of money.

For those that don't believe this kind of stuff happens, BTW, I'll remind everybody again: at least one intentionally marked deck had to be removed from the 2008 wsop $50K HORSE tournament. If card marking can happen there it can happen just about anywhere.

Anyway, my point: sure, this kind of thing would be much easier to do in a home game, but the increase in difficulty won't stop people trying it other places.

bazerk · May 18, 2010

OzExorcist said:
...If card marking can happen there it can happen just about anywhere...

Anyway, my point: sure, this kind of thing would be much easier to do in a home game, but the increase in difficulty won't stop people trying it other places.

^^ One of the major casinos here has a free daily slot tournament, the prizes generally consist of souvenir items with that casino's name on it; on several occasions I've won decks of cards that are sealed with a 'This Deck of Cards Was Used in Actual Play in this Fabulous Casino.' The SO opened one of the packs a few days ago to practice 'Outs to come on the Turn & the River' calcs...he discovered the Aces were marked...these cards are from a major strip casino, don't know if the cards were used in the poker room or @ the table games.

M33K3R · May 18, 2010

I see nothing wrong with wearing them. That being said, I don't wear them.

tpb221 · May 18, 2010

WHAT!? I'm so cool I wear sunglasses and a hoodie when I play online

smithtown1 · May 18, 2010

Sunglasses always seem to help me and so I will keep wearing them and hope not to ever forget them. I don't feel like I'm cheating. Just really helps to keep people from looking into my eyes. I also dont mind how cool they make me feel.

SavagePenguin · May 18, 2010

Cheaters daub cards, and use sunglasses to see the daub.
Of course most people who wear sunglasses aren't daubing cards, but sunglasses are a tool used by those that do.

I saw a show on the Travel Chanel where blackjack players would daub cards. Not only did they use tinted glasses to see the daub marks they put on the cards, but they'd change the focus of the lenses so that they magnified things at a distance of 3.5'. Things looked blurry close up and far away, but it let them see the next card at in the deck.

Daubing lets people secretly mark the deck in play, and when you're using one deck at a poker table that can be an incredible advantage.

I'd also like to note that in the live tournaments I've played in, sunglasses have done very little to hide people's tells. It helps a little, but not a lot. Of course the douchey people who use them in such low limit games don't really have an idea about tells so, so pretty much everything but "watch their eyes are looking at" works. (And heck, a lot of the time you can tell what they're looking at anyway.)

budebuzz · May 20, 2010

I like wearing sunglasses for several reasons, it hides any tells that not wearing them you could see or think you see

, I can look around for tells on others and they dont know it, I look meaner with sunglasses, I can close my eyes when I am tired and no one knows I'm tired. I can roll my eyes, look supprised or mad and no one knows the difference. I like it because it makes some people feel uneasy and then I have an edge.

rcbstuff · May 20, 2010

Everyone has sunglasses, NASCAR, baseball, so Poker shouldn't be any different. It's a way for someone to express their style.

LombardiStix · May 22, 2010

rcbstuff said:
Everyone has sunglasses, NASCAR, baseball, so Poker shouldn't be any different. It's a way for someone to express their style.

Yeah because NASCAR, baseball and poker are so alike and all... I could make a million jokes about things found in NASCAR and baseball that would be ridiculous to be allowed in poker, but I'll refrain.

The way many of you have expressed that "banning sunglasses could be a slippery slope". Is the same way that allowing them is the same slippery slope. How big can your "glasses" be. Can they cover your entire face? It would just make the game better to lose the shades and play face to face. Again I know I'm in the minority here, but my personal preference is that players should bear the burden of controlling their facial features to prevent giving away information. When we let people mask their faces (esp. their eyes), we are taking away a basic and crucial element to the live poker game. Jus my 2.

Stix

woodwidgeon · May 22, 2010

Some like to play with them, i don't see that they help you one way or another. I wear them once in a while depending on the lighting system.

OzExorcist · May 22, 2010

*sigh*

Is there any way we can edit the OP and include the video link so people who don't read the whole thread can see what we're actually talking about?

Shadowplay · May 22, 2010

It's not cheating, it's not even close.

I think it's ridiculous to wear these things if the stakes are low. I remember playing a $40 buy in tournament at Mandalay and the guy next to me was wearing them. I was like, 'seriously, for $40 you need sunglasses'? He went out before the final table. When you get to high stakes games though, you need whatever edge you can get.

SUNGLASSES IN POKER: Maybe douchey, but cheating?

What do you think of sunglasses in live poker?

I hate sunglasses in poker... because it IS like cheating.

I hate sunglasses in poker... but it's not cheating, just douchey.

I like sunglasses in poker and wearing them ISN'T cheating.

I could care less either way since there's more to poker than this.

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