Tournament ROI% questions

Your ROI on freerolls will be infinite as your investment is nothing.

No harm recording them but I'd do it separately to the buy-ins.

A decent ROI% for MTTs needs a good few hundred to even out as the swings (up and down) are so big. In the long run I've read elsewhere that an ROI between 50 and 75% is pretty decent. You really need hundreds to start making judgements though.

Yep, keep the FR's separate. I think what you're looking for in those stats is the rate ITM since, as stated above, there is no cash investment in a FR.

philthy said:

Ah, I see. Thats what I was thinking-at least minimum of a 100+ games. Well I only have 2 FR cashes listed, so I dont think its making a huge impact in my current ROI.

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Uh, no. 100 games is nothing. 10,000+ seems more like it, and even then you'd have a significant chance of your calculated ROI being way off from your true ROI.

sort of depends on the average field of the MTTs youre playing. bigger fields = more variance. if we're talking like an average of 1000 entrants, i'd just generally say it will take thousands to most likely get near your ROI. thousands. not sure how many thousands, but more than a few.

excellent professional MTT players can play a thousand MTTs in a year, and those professionals can have a very good year or a very bad year without their play being dramatically different in either

all you can do embrace the variance of MTTs. few people understand how insane it actually is

Regarding the freerolls

I keep my stats on excel spreadsheets and I would personally track freerolls within MTT`s. (although I don`t normally bother with freerolls now - too much time for too little return)

I agree with the fact from a ROI point of view it is difficult to track them, however, built in to your overall MTT results I do think it needs to be added.

I am more so thinking of time invested here - so I accept that is totally different from ROI.

Going back to what I said about freerolls, I`m not saying that ppl should not play them, I`m just saying that I`m lucky now to have a decent bankroll, so I don`t have the time or need to play them - unless, obviously, there is a large payout guarenteed

I suppose if you wanted to incorporate freerolls, from a pure statistical point of view you could divide the total prizepool by the number of entrants to get average equity at the start of the fr, then use that as a 'buy-in' figure so that it doesn't skew your 'real' ROI so much, but there's still so much wrong with doing that that I suggest you omit them totally.

You need tens of thousands of tourneys (assuming they're relatively 'big' MTTs) to get within a couple of percent of your 'true' ROI with a reasonable expectancy. Of course, through the course of tens of thousands of tournaments your 'true' ROI will doubtless be changing, so there really is no way to know precisely what it is at any given time.

I suggest you don't worry so much and just play poker. Of course, there is obvious benefit to keeping accurate records, but worrying too much about them may well end up being detrimental.

Best thing to do is to browse the stats of players on OPR and get a sense of what people achieve. The ITM is interesting but the % of FTs and Late (and early) finishes is also revealing. Need to pay attention to average field size as well. Also make sure you are looking at Full History not just last 120 days (which is what the Ranking is based on).

As people have said MTTs are brutal and given the distorting effect of big wins it's unlikely you'll ever get an accurate ROI.