WTF, proof of collusion on single table S N G @ Full Tilt, I'm startiing to get sick

Crummy · Jan 19, 2010

Kasanova King said:
I'm just trying to do my small part in ridding the sites of these cheats. I did cash in the STT so I actually would make more from the cash than if FTP decided to refund all the player's buy ins - so technically, I will lose $$ if they decided to do so. I'm just trying to do the right thing.

I think the right thing to do in this situation is to just leave it be!

wagon596 · Jan 20, 2010

If you think you were cheated, then report it... But getting angry at the feedback you got here because some people disagreed, is senseless. Take a chill pill and play poker.
Take care

ph_il · Jan 20, 2010

Kasanova King said:
Anyway, I started to get suspicious after it got down to the 3 of us that the big stack would only come after me, pushin' me all in with rags, etc. AND BEFORE ANYONE ASKS, YES, I HAD 2X AS MANY CHIPS AS THE SHORT STACK. - up until I got pushed out of my blinds about 10X. The big stack would never push the short stack all in. When I would raise the short stacks' blinds, the large stack would protect him by going all in. So friggin blatant.

Kasanova King said:
My single table S N' G strategy is among the best, both live and online. I've won and cashed in hundreds live and online. (More than 60% of the ones I've played in total) I make decent money in single table S N' Goes, until that stops happening, I don't need any help in that category. But maybe I could give you guys a few pointers...

I find it funny that someone can claim to be so good at SNGs and so confident in their game to point where they're telling seasoned members and proven players that he could 'give them a few pointers' and yet he fails to get passed the little obstacle in bold?

Hmmm...for someone who is so good at SNGs, not being able to get around the part in bold is a bit funny. Now, Im sure I'm not as good as you at SNGs, but even I can see a way to get around a 'big stack shoving everytime I was the short stack'. Maybe after the 3rd or 4th time it happened you wouldve picked up on it and maybe worked around it or used it to your advantage to somehow double up...I don't know. I'm just saying...

lupefan · Jan 20, 2010

To get back on topic, why dont u just player search them and see if they play on the same table often? i know you can hide yourself, but its worth a shot.

Effexor · Jan 20, 2010

Kasanova King said:
IF YOU ALSO NOTICE MY ROI WAS STILL 14% - SO WHAT DOES THAT MEAN??

It's completely possible to have a good solid ROI yet not be any good. If you win a large amount in one SNG, that will skew your ROI greatly towards the positive.

As a matter of fact, it's possible to not cash at all in 99 out of 100 SNG's, yet still show a positive ROI.

"SO WHAT DOES THAT MEAN??"

It means you need to shut your mouth and open your ears and then you might learn something.

sactokid544 · Jan 20, 2010

philthy said:
I find it funny that someone can claim to be so good at SNGs and so confident in their game to point where they're telling seasoned members and proven players that he could 'give them a few pointers' and yet he fails to get passed the little obstacle in bold?

Hmmm...for someone who is so good at SNGs, not being able to get around the part in bold is a bit funny. Now, Im sure I'm not as good as you at SNGs, but even I can see a way to get around a 'big stack shoving everytime I was the short stack'. Maybe after the 3rd or 4th time it happened you wouldve picked up on it and maybe worked around it or used it to your advantage to somehow double up...I don't know. I'm just saying...

This. Even if they were colluding, the element of luck always negates the advantage of colluding to some degree.

In order for them to make a profit colluding with them finishing in the top two, they first have to get there. And that means playing a lot of hands before getting there, which subjects them to bad luck, etc. Obviously, if this was live, it would be different but ya..

With that said, even if you knew they were colluding, as it was said above, you can adjust. If the big stack was ALWAYS shoving, he is obviously shoving a HUGE range here. Which means you can make some adjustments. Whenever someone becomes predictible, they become exploitable, end of story.

You should have adjusted your game. Period.

sactokid544 · Jan 20, 2010

Has anyone played him heads up yet?

iamthepush · Jan 20, 2010

Kasanova King said:
That's my online BR sweetie, Far from total BR

What is the difference between online bank roll and total bank roll?

Poker Orifice · Jan 20, 2010

WurlyQ said:
Where is the collusion...? Keeping the short stack around to take chips from the 2nd stack is a standard SnG strategy imo.

In regards to the chat, the "out loud" and "i don't believe you" comments were directed at the "lol" the bigstack made at the virginity comment. Also, if they were colluding, the guy would never say, "thanks for keeping me around".

I highly doubt this is collusion but good luck getting your money back if they were colluding.

I'd have to agree with this statement too. It is a good strategy to keep the shortstack in... and if you're raising preflop into the bigstack, you should always keep in mind that if he's knowledgeable SNG player, there's a good chance he's going to shove allin on you so I wouldn't bother to raise pre w/o a hand you're willing to call his shove with.

Maybe I'd change my mind if I saw some of the earlier handhistories but I wouldn't from this example here.

Poker Orifice · Jan 20, 2010

Kasanova King said:
Optimal according to who? I cash in the majority of the single table S n G's and I never used that strategy. My ROI is around 15% so I must be doing something right. But since everyone around here thinks they know everything about poker, I guess I should start using that "optimal" strategy and watch my ROI drop.

This actually is a very effective strategy. Maybe you should consider doing some homework.

Poker Orifice · Jan 20, 2010

Dorkus Malorkus said:
Whan you raise the button 3-handed with a middling stack and the big stack to your immediate left you're likely to be raising with a pretty wide range, and the big stack knows that if shoved on you will only be able to call with a tiny portion of that range (assuming that stack sizes dictate that he has fold equity if he shoves) because of the presence of the short stack (who will invariably fold and hope you call and bust unless he wakes up with a strong hand).

Actually... wouldn't you often be compensating for this when playing on the mid-sized stack?? (if you know bigstack is aware of strategy). Raise/folding sucks obv... but of course depends on the size of your stack. Generally I'm raising here with consideration of bigstack shoving so I'm actually not opening with a wide range (as I typically might be).

Poker Orifice · Jan 20, 2010

ihtennis said:
send an email to ft. There is an email address on full tilt specifically for collusion. I sent an email to them over a month ago about collusion that was blatantly obvious and the players basically admitted that they colluded and still havent had a reply from ft. It will probably take them a long time to respond to you too.

Not necessarily so (although in OP's case I really don't think it is collusion). I've reported a few cases of collusion and although support was not able to tell me the action they took, I do know they took action immediately (in one case they actually shutdown the wrong account.... it was a friend of mine who was playing while I was watching their game, two other's on table with simliar names even were blatantly colluding and repeatedly chatting about in the chatbox. Fulltilt went & shut my friend's account down by mistake.... but at least they were taking action, lol). I tried doing a player search on the other two players for a week or so & didn't see them again (<< this is not proof in itself obviously.. but I do know they take action against colluding and do so promptly).

Kasanova King · Jan 20, 2010

Effexor said:
It's completely possible to have a good solid ROI yet not be any good. If you win a large amount in one SNG, that will skew your ROI greatly towards the positive.

As a matter of fact, it's possible to not cash at all in 99 out of 100 SNG's, yet still show a positive ROI.

"SO WHAT DOES THAT MEAN??"

It means you need to shut your mouth and open your ears and then you might learn something.

Actually, my the ROI from Cereus was built up from playing hundreds of $1 and $2 STT, it dropped dramatically when I went on tilt and donked off my BR playing 2 maybe 3 $10 STT's...it was much higher, actually and you can see it in the graph.

Kasanova King · Jan 20, 2010

philthy said:
I find it funny that someone can claim to be so good at SNGs and so confident in their game to point where they're telling seasoned members and proven players that he could 'give them a few pointers' and yet he fails to get passed the little obstacle in bold?

Hmmm...for someone who is so good at SNGs, not being able to get around the part in bold is a bit funny. Now, Im sure I'm not as good as you at SNGs, but even I can see a way to get around a 'big stack shoving everytime I was the short stack'. Maybe after the 3rd or 4th time it happened you wouldve picked up on it and maybe worked around it or used it to your advantage to somehow double up...I don't know. I'm just saying...

I actually did double up a few times...we played over 40 hands 3 handed...it was tough hanging in there that long, with me never having over 10 -15 bb at any point, even after doubling up. When I say he was only coming after me, I mean it.

The two knew each other, that was obvious.....maybe they didn't pre-plan a conspiracy but they did end up colluding.

Kasanova King · Jan 20, 2010

sactokid544 said:
This. Even if they were colluding, the element of luck always negates the advantage of colluding to some degree.

In order for them to make a profit colluding with them finishing in the top two, they first have to get there. And that means playing a lot of hands before getting there, which subjects them to bad luck, etc. Obviously, if this was live, it would be different but ya..

With that said, even if you knew they were colluding, as it was said above, you can adjust. If the big stack was ALWAYS shoving, he is obviously shoving a HUGE range here. Which means you can make some adjustments. Whenever someone becomes predictible, they become exploitable, end of story.

You should have adjusted your game. Period.

I did adjust my game, I had no choice, lol....I actually doubled up a few times but I was too short to ever get over 15 bb.

Kasanova King · Jan 20, 2010

Poker Orifice said:
Actually... wouldn't you often be compensating for this when playing on the mid-sized stack?? (if you know bigstack is aware of strategy). Raise/folding sucks obv... but of course depends on the size of your stack. Generally I'm raising here with consideration of bigstack shoving so I'm actually not opening with a wide range (as I typically might be).

The more I think about it now, we were actually both technically short stacked, I just had about 3-4 bb more than the shorter stack but I was still short, around 10/12bb.

The two knew each other, that was obvious...it may have not been pre-planned but they ended up colluding. They admitted it the chatbox.

Kasanova King · Jan 20, 2010

iamthepush said:
What is the difference between online bank roll and total bank roll?

I play online to sharpen my main game - playing live. It's basically "practice" for me.

Sean Pilgrim · Jan 20, 2010

To Whom It May Concern:

If OP genuinely believes that a mere "I'm tight yo" response is evidence that collusion is going on. Then OP needs to really think about how players would collude.

1st off and probably most "popular" among colluders is using an instant messenger client such as AIM, MSN Messenger, Yahoo Messenger, etc. When you submit your report to Full Tilt, they will grant you your wish if they see some "odd" behavior directly relating to your two opponents. (ie: If Opponent 1 took 1st place and Opponent 2 took 2nd, then there was a monetary transfer between the two players either afterwards/before/or if it's an ongoing thing).

2nd, Do not brag about 15% ROI because A: it's not good ROI for single table SnG's and B: you WILL get looked up and it will be used against you for credibility.

3rd, My ROI sucks, (no pun intended to the CCer who's SN is that) there are a lot of players who's ROI sucks. I don't care who see's mine but it does. I will not and do not suggest ever posting some great feat unless it is true.

4th, due to the 15% ROI claim, you are making a huge deal about a $5 SnG.

5th and final: We are here to help you, no need to get defensive with us.

shnish · Jan 20, 2010

Crummy said:
I have to agree with the above..... I really don't see any collusion. In theory its smarter when you have chips to get in hands with the guys who are around your stack size, not messing too much with the shorter stacks. When you bully the short stacks you are hurting yourself by giving them a chance to double up. When you are in hands with others around the same stack size you have a chance to fully double up (or get yourself knocked out).

I disagree with everything said here. Playing with only stacks of your size? really? please explain why. There are many times you could make the small stacks fold and youd be dumb to not do so.

Toad · Jan 20, 2010

jaggibson said:
Ok back to the original reason for this post.

I looked on Top Shark for rightonbeat and raelbigs stats.

They were horrible. You would think if they were masters at collusion there stats wouldnt be shittier than mine at least.

Correct me if I'm wrong here.

If 2 players with -20% ROI collude with eachother does that make their effective ROI -40%?

Toad · Jan 20, 2010

Effexor said:
It's completely possible to have a good solid ROI yet not be any good. If you win a large amount in one SNG, that will skew your ROI greatly towards the positive.

As a matter of fact, it's possible to not cash at all in 99 out of 100 SNG's, yet still show a positive ROI.

"SO WHAT DOES THAT MEAN??"

It means you need to shut your mouth and open your ears and then you might learn something.

^^^This^^^

sharkscope has my ROI at 32%...

....my stats are totally skewed because I won a micro MTT awhile back.

My real SNG ROI is closer to 10%.

Kasanova King · Jan 20, 2010

Sean Pilgrim said:
If OP genuinely believes that a mere "I'm tight yo" response is evidence that collusion is going on. Then OP needs to really think about how players would collude.

1st off and probably most "popular" among colluders is using an instant messenger client such as AIM, MSN Messenger, Yahoo Messenger, etc. When you submit your report to Full Tilt, they will grant you your wish if they see some "odd" behavior directly relating to your two opponents. (ie: If Opponent 1 took 1st place and Opponent 2 took 2nd, then there was a monetary transfer between the two players either afterwards/before/or if it's an ongoing thing).

2nd, Do not brag about 15% ROI because A: it's not good ROI for single table SnG's and B: you WILL get looked up and it will be used against you for credibility.

3rd, My ROI sucks, (no pun intended to the CCer who's SN is that) there are a lot of players who's ROI sucks. I don't care who see's mine but it does. I will not and do not suggest ever posting some great feat unless it is true.

4th, due to the 15% ROI claim, you are making a huge deal about a $5 SnG.

5th and final: We are here to help you, no need to get defensive with us.

No, that's not the only reason I thought they were colluding, lol. That was the straw that broke the camel's back.

1.Yeah, I'm sure it is and I hope Full Tilt does.

2. You could make a living with a 15% ROI in STT's in higher stakes. (Or at least a decent 2nd income) Example: If you played 20 $50 buy in STT a day with a 15% ROI you would be netting around $150 a day. 15% is far from bad.

3. Uhmmm....it is and was true. Even when they looked up my Cereus performance it showed a 14% ROI, sorry, I was off by a point.

4. It's about the principal, not the money. I play online to sharpen my live game. From my understanding, that's what you do too. I'll blow $20 on my way the casino before I even sit down at a table there, trust me, it isn't about the 5 bucks, lol.

5. What set me off initially was the wise ass responses I got, so I returned the favor. You're right though, I shouldn't stoop to that level and next time, I won't.

jewboy07 · Jan 20, 2010

Kasanova King said:
No, that's not the only reason I thought they were colluding, lol. That was the straw that broke the camel's back.

2. You could make a living with a 15% ROI in STT's in higher stakes. (Or at least a decent 2nd income) Example: If you played 20 $50 buy in STT a day with a 15% ROI you would be netting around $150 a day. 15% is far from bad.

ok even if that were true you should be beating the micro stakes STT's that you play for waayyyyyyyyyy higher of an ROI

high stakes ROI =/= micro stakes ROI

Kasanova King · Jan 20, 2010

jewboy07 said:
ok even if that were true you should be beating the micro stakes STT's that you play for waayyyyyyyyyy higher of an ROI

high stakes ROI =/= micro stakes ROI

I agree 100%. Obviously someone with a 15% ROI in micros wouldn't have that same ROI in higher stakes....and I wouldn't go to higher stakes online until my ROI is much higher. (Unless I'm on a tilt rampage, lol)

luckforsome · Jan 20, 2010

...you mentioned tha they posible didnt pre plan to collude but did it eventually...i must admit. im guilty ill turn myself in

i colluded intentially about 100 times
6 plyer sng, 10 player sng, mtt bubble..ive gone all in purely against shrt stack
ive intentially folded kk preflop on bubble of a super sat against chip leader pre flop...ive checked the nut straight on flop and turn...and i can guarantee everyone here has done that...
im not saying they werent colluding, i have no proof to go against you
im just saying, its very vey possible that he had tactiavcal plans that u didnt like

and also, i have said thanks to people beofre that coulda knocked me out by raising or calling but folded...kinda tongue in cheek stuff but..

WTF, proof of collusion on single table S N G @ Full Tilt, I'm startiing to get sick

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