AK or 77 allin pre flop

ROYALKNIGHT · May 30, 2009

Which hand is better pre flop allin?

I noticed alot players go allin with these two hands.

kach40 · May 30, 2009

I would make an all in preflop with AK but not with 77

aliengenius · May 30, 2009

AK, as your fold equity is huge and you are rarely dominated. 77 gets called by all kinds of things that crush it (i.e., bigger pairs), whereas with AK not only is it less likely that your opponent has aces or kings (since you have one of each she has less combinations), but even IF you are called by a hand as strong as QQ you are still essentially a coin flip.

mmmcher · May 30, 2009

If it's AK vs. 77, 77 obviously, you're like a 55-45 favorite.

If it's at a full ring game or tournament, Ace King, as you're much less likely to be crushed (only by Aces or Kings), then by having 77, where any of the 7 overpairs to 77 could have you in a bad spot.

kevkojak · May 30, 2009

I'd favour AK. Its a slight underdog (but basically a coin flip-ish) against an under-pair, but the high-card, top-kicker dominates lower Aces.
I try to steer clear of heavy betting pre-flop (and Definately risking my whole tourney) on any pair lower than 9's. Unless your down to under 15 BB's or facing a previous all-in from a table lunatic you think you'll have dominated.
Pairs, I think, need a slightly more delicate touch than 'shove'.
If I was forced in to a push or fold situation in the first orbit (the exception being MAYBE a freeroll depending on the pay structure) with 7 7, I'd have to fold it 90% of the time. Whereas A K i'd think seriously about calling with.

PattyR · May 30, 2009

well your more than likely to be up against another if not an even bigger pocket pair if your holding 77.

so id say AK is better off....but 77 is a great hand to shove with imo

TheWall · May 30, 2009

I would prefer to push with AK especially if I thought that I might not be the only caller and it is less likely to be dominated. However as someone said earlier heads up 77 is a 55/45 favorite over AK.

daguksta · May 31, 2009

Two overcards vs. a pocket pair is basically a 50/50 chance.

It could go either way, a coin flip basically.

Four Dogs · May 31, 2009

Believe it or not, 77 is a little better than a coin flip HU vs AK. 46% to 54%. About the same for all Ax>7 match-ups. That said, I think I'd rather shove with AK from early position and 77 from late position. From early position there's just too great a chance that somone will wake up with a better pair. I think I'd rather have the made hand though from late position where that likelyhood is greatly reduced.

MainEventOrBust · May 31, 2009

mmmcher said:
If it's AK vs. 77, 77 obviously, you're like a 55-45 favorite.

If it's at a full ring game or tournament, Ace King, as you're much less likely to be crushed (only by Aces or Kings), then by having 77, where any of the 7 overpairs to 77 could have you in a bad spot.

This.

Lets look at a 4-way hand for instance, and their chances of winning before the flop comes:
AhJs - 15.78%
9h9d - 36.07%
7h7c - 19.11%
AdKs - 27.33%

(Note that numbers don't add to 100% due to hands that result in ties.)

Even though AK is only 27%, you are getting better than 3 to 1, so it is positive expected value (+EV). 77 being dominated by another pair has to hit a two-outter or a miracle straight or flush to win.

jolubman · May 31, 2009

Actually you have a better change of winning with a pair, any pair including 2s than you do with ace king. If I'm short stacked I'll go allin with ace king and when called I get knocked out often.

Kuberr · May 31, 2009

Mathematics aside, if I were to go all-in, I would have to pick AK over 77. If it were 99, however, I would take that instead.

With only two to four people at the table, I would go all-in with both hands.
With more, I would go with AK only if I'm short-stacked.

In general, AK wins when no one hits a pair or when you hit a pair.
In general, 77 wins when your opponent doesn't hit a pair.

I like AK better.

P.S. I think the OP is not directly comparing 77 vs. AK. He's asking which is better to go all in pre-flop.

MainEventOrBust · May 31, 2009

jolubman said:
Actually you have a better change of winning with a pair, any pair including 2s than you do with ace king. If I'm short stacked I'll go allin with ace king and when called I get knocked out often.

Exactly, when called. Plenty of fold-equity in an all in bet, but if you get called by anything less than KK or AA, at least you have a fair chance to win the race.

I see plenty of Ax calls against AK all ins, very rarely AA or KK. If its 22-QQ, at least its a race.

Not too many 22 - 66 calls when I have seen 77 pushed in.

wona2009wsopseat · Jun 1, 2009

My take on this is that 77 is a slight favourite over AK. However, I would rather hold AK moving all in, or calling all in. The reasoning is simple. AK is beat by AA and KK. It is roughly 50% to win against any pocket pair. You are also ahead of any ace by a longshot. Holding a pocket pair, you are only ahead of lower pocket pairs and an ace with your pairs rank or lower. Higher pairs dominate you, and an ace + your pairs rank +1 have you at 50%. Without this logic, running deep in a large tournament is impossible.

WVHillbilly · Jun 1, 2009

AK and it's not even close.

Against a range of 77+/AQs+/AK (a realistic range imo for the end of a tourney scenario)

77 against that range: 30.5%
AK against that range: 44%

BTW you have to have TT or better to have better equity against that range than you do with AK.

LizzyJ · Jun 1, 2009

I can't stand going all in to begin with, unless I know I have an advantage. However.....even though it's a coin toss, I seem to win more with AK than 77. However 8-8 seems to workout for me a little better. go figure.

chukky88 · Jun 1, 2009

dont go allin with pair under queens...ak is a good hand but you will dont win every time when you go allin...but is better than 77.
with ak you have more chances to win...with pair of 7's if you dont hit a 7 on board you are almost gone.

TPC · Jun 1, 2009

If you push with 77, you are most likely to be called by the top 10% of hands. Same with Ak. So I ran a simulation with the two to compare. AK is the winner by far!!!

The first one is 77 vs a range of 88 and up. 77 wins 41.86% of the time

The second one is Ak off suit vs a range of 88 and up. Ak wins 52.64% of the time

Nice post OP!!! something cool to see.

Poker Orifice · Jun 1, 2009

..... It depends
As with most situations in poker.. it really 'depends'. It depends upon a bunch of factors.
I'm assuming the question here is in relation to being shortstacked in tourney-style poker, either sng or Mtt.
For an MTT, if I'm at a point where I need to be getting my chips allin preflop, personally I would much prefer the A-K. As mentioned by Nick above.. with the AK I'm really only behind AA & KK and am flipping with all other pairs. The 77 I could be WA or WB or flipping with a really wide range.

Other things to consider with this question... ok.. I'm assuming we're shortstacked on or around 10bb's or under but what I'm not sure about is... are we first to enter the pot?.. or has pot already been opened or what?
To give a decent answer here though, I'd need to hear in what the situation actually was.
As far as which hand would I be more apt to shove with preflop when in a situation where I'm needing to shove.... my answer is 'both'.

lov_my_wife · Jun 1, 2009

Personally it would be all situational for me. If i have AK in the bb to a button raise i would definantly shove it all in but from an early position raise i would probably fold it. With 77 i would play it strong pre flop, probably raising from middle, and late positions and folding it to an early position raise but i dont really like shoving either of these hands pre flop.

villarge · Jun 1, 2009

Nice post

What a nice reintroduction to CC.

Initially I thought the post was not a sensible question as my reaction was that "it depends".

However having read the post again and the very good replies I have learnt something.

I am going to like it here I think. My initial reaction was that I would rather have a made hand. However it is good to think about what might call you.

Thanks

Adam

Theblueduce · Jun 1, 2009

AK hands down.

fanofbruins · Jun 7, 2009

i dont like to be all-in with either. at least not pre flop

left52side · Jun 8, 2009

It is certanly a race situation I would say.
Depends of course on alot of things such as is it a 9 handed game or a shorthanded game.
I rarley will go all in with either one of those hands,depending on of course the players at my table and my reads on them.
Also what my pot odds and position in the hand has alot to do with how I will play those type hands.

Chamaican666 · Jun 8, 2009

This question is rly dependant on the situation. Poker is a game of situations and without the exact facts of whats going on a real answer cant really be given. Is it a cash game? a tourney? How big is ur stack? Are u first to enter hte pot? are u calling all in or shoving all in? Everything in poker is situational. personally, I tend to shove with both but only call a shove with AK (even shortstacked I dont call with 77 too much only if I have something liek 10X the other guys stack and its a heads up situation).

AK or 77 allin pre flop

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