The Guide to Pre-Flop (Day 6 Course Discussion)

bruno13xs · May 22, 2020

Great video about the preflop. I always take a lot of risk on the pre-flop by paying a lot of BBs to try to hit a straight or a flash and I always do badly.

Showbizin · May 22, 2020

KQs of hearts is the prettiest =)

Hi! Thanks for the lesson!

This chapter is breakthrough for me as I used to play too tight range and it didn't depend on position. I usually played with a tight range all the position. But now I'm playing wider range, added some agression and I've already had results such as more ITMs and going deeper in MTT's.

I have a question. I thought that 65s+ (for example) range is suited connectors only. So Katie told in the video. But in the book there is a note about 54s+ range and it consists of not only connectors but 75s , 94s as well. So the question is - how to define this range right? 54s+ is connectors only or all the suited hands higher than 54s? Or maybe it's not so important thing we should know exactly.

Thanks!

Katie Dozier · May 22, 2020

Coinuss said:
I did not think that an effective stack is the minimum count of chips that I can lose. I thought that an effective stack is the minimum count of chips that I can win against an opponent. As a rule, I often have a short stack and therefore an effective stack is equal to my stack. But, changing my mindset, I improved my game.
I did not analyze my own range, I always thought that it was very tight, but after reading the recommendations I thought that the proposed range is so wide that I decided to analyze my range, and I was surprised that I have only two ranges for UTG / Utg + 1 / MP/ LO / HJ, as the HJ range from guidelines, and for CO / BTN / SB, as the BTN range. I found that my early position range is so loose, and that is what leads to eliminate from MTT. I will try discipline in the future.
Thanks for this course, Katie and Collin.

Those sound like major improvements to your game, well done

Edu1 · May 23, 2020

about the preflop hands, in my opinion is, your effective stack size, and the tournament state, these two are one of the most important things to think before play a hand. I see many players in various tournaments (any buy-in price) making mistakes hugh mistakes with AK, AQ early in tournament, without think about the risk involved

king11682 · May 24, 2020

These two things are vital in poker the hands that we should bet preflop shown in the guide with this we would have an advantage in the course of the streets and the effective stack to know it is worth continuing in a pot

Ivansito26 · May 25, 2020

totally excellent, the pre-flop is the most important thing in poker because it leads us to make good and bad decisions, since each play begins, with a% that you can win knowing how to move the cards, since there are many factors in this part Which are the position, knowing how to study the players and the good faces or connecting cards that help a lot and but the most important thing is always to play a pair in pre flop eye depending on the bets of the opponents and to know if we have a decent stack to be able to call and see the flop

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armoko · May 26, 2020

Great helpful review from Katie. Pre-Flop is definitely very important topic in poker. Regarding pre-flop chapter in the book there was some rule which says: "Don’t limp first in from any other (it's about small blind position) position." I didn't know about this rule. Is there any exception for this rule? May be there are some examples where I can limp from late position ? Thanks

deyvsonflp · May 26, 2020

Very good and very important class. For multi-table players, the pre-flop range must be very well adjusted. Thing that in the micro we see many people sinning in this aspect.

Glaucopone · May 27, 2020

Checklist

I thought it was very important to Katie right from the start to point out the pre-flop analysis factors and say that we need to define whether or not we are going to play this hand. In fact, I even wrote it down on paper as a checklist until the factors that I do naturally, but at the time of the game, in emotion, distraction, I forget to analyze any of these factors.

Thanks Katie!

Collin Moshman · May 27, 2020

armoko said:
Great helpful review from Katie. Pre-Flop is definitely very important topic in poker. Regarding pre-flop chapter in the book there was some rule which says: "Don’t limp first in from any other (it's about small blind position) position." I didn't know about this rule. Is there any exception for this rule? May be there are some examples where I can limp from late position ? Thanks

You can definitely limp behind other opponents. But when it comes to being the first player to enter the pot, we recommend never limping unless you're in the small blind. No exceptions

Glaucopone said:
I thought it was very important to Katie right from the start to point out the pre-flop analysis factors and say that we need to define whether or not we are going to play this hand. In fact, I even wrote it down on paper as a checklist until the factors that I do naturally, but at the time of the game, in emotion, distraction, I forget to analyze any of these factors.

Thanks Katie!

Agree that Katie did a great job with this one, thanks Glaucopone!

armoko · May 27, 2020

Collin Moshman said:
You can definitely limp behind other opponents. But when it comes to being the first player to enter the pot, we recommend never limping unless you're in the small blind. No exceptions

Ok I got u. Thanks for reply!

Muzyka1996 · May 30, 2020

This is one of the important chapter in poker. Katie explained it really good and with different scenarios. The only thing now learn and keep in mind all the hands for each position which you should play.

Katie Dozier · May 31, 2020

Muzyka1996 said:
This is one of the important chapter in poker. Katie explained it really good and with different scenarios. The only thing now learn and keep in mind all the hands for each position which you should play.

That's very kind, thank you!

Tux97 · Jun 1, 2020

redboy23 said:
Day 2 - Chapter 6 (Continued)

With KQ suited, I should raise but again would limp to see how well I connect with the flop. This is only because my stack is deep.

I do not like to give villain an excuse to shove over my raise. Again the question - if I raise or 3-bet here would I call villains shove. If the answer is no - chances are I simply call or fold. I am looking at the UTG player he can have ATs+, 88+

Glad to hear your take on this.

I see what you mean but I think if we raise KQs and then villain re-raises or even goes all-in then we simply fold. Better to lose a little pre-flop than risk a lot post flop.

Tux97 · Jun 1, 2020

Katie Dozier said:
For me, stack preservation is only an important concept in tournament poker for certain types of ICM-dictated circumstances, otherwise I’m always just trying to make correct plays that will result in accumulation in the long run

Thanks for putting it so succinctly if I did not misunderstand you. I am reading another book by a successful tournament pro and he also warns against what many of us beginners try to do which is preserving "tournament life". One should just play correctly and that will pay off in the long run.

Tux97 · Jun 1, 2020

Thanks a lot for this great chapter. My question is if we remain faithful to the rule of aggression then we should increase our (bet/raise to call) ratio as was advised in chapter 2. Consequently, shouldn't we be more selective with our opening range even from LP or SB? For example, dropping hands like J8o, 85o or K2s? I mean as a beginner, I don't feel comfortable raising with these hands because I don't think I know enough to play them well post flop and I don't like limping with them either because it's a week move. So I simply fold. Does that make sense?

Katie Dozier · Jun 2, 2020

Tux97 said:
Thanks a lot for this great chapter. My question is if we remain faithful to the rule of aggression then we should increase our (bet/raise to call) ratio as was advised in chapter 2. Consequently, shouldn't we be more selective with our opening range even from LP or SB? For example, dropping hands like J8o, 85o or K2s? I mean as a beginner, I don't feel comfortable raising with these hands because I don't think I know enough to play them well post flop and I don't like limping with them either because it's a week move. So I simply fold. Does that make sense?

When I was transitioning from the primarily shove/fold world of super turbo SNGs to slower speed games with dramatically more post flop play, I had a much tighter opening range than I evolved to having. In other words, I agree with your approach as a beginner for a time to tighten somewhat so long as you’re doing it mindfully (as you clearly are

) with an eye to how you will seek to open those hands down the road.

morthiman · Jun 5, 2020

Guy, thks for the course so far.

Not much to add here, I truly agree with limping on low hands because it makes so easy to let go if you don't get nothing on flop.

But my real struggle has been with RAISING limpers, recieving a call and hitting nothing on FLOP....what now?

For example, let's take the Imaginary KQs situation, I raise 1.500, get a call from BB and UTG+1, Flop comes, I hit nothing and UTG+1 bets the POT (about 4900 if I made my math right)....about this

At long term isn´t better just to limp call and see more flops?

Maybe it's because the lvl which I'm playing, where we see lots of hands and raise 3bbs MAX. But I still not shure how to use the "move" mentioned above or in the video

Collin Moshman · Jun 9, 2020

morthiman said:
Guy, thks for the course so far.

Not much to add here, I truly agree with limping on low hands because it makes so easy to let go if you don't get nothing on flop.

But my real struggle has been with RAISING limpers, recieving a call and hitting nothing on FLOP....what now?

For example, let's take the Imaginary KQs situation, I raise 1.500, get a call from BB and UTG+1, Flop comes, I hit nothing and UTG+1 bets the POT (about 4900 if I made my math right)....about this

At long term isn´t better just to limp call and see more flops?

Maybe it's because the lvl which I'm playing, where we see lots of hands and raise 3bbs MAX. But I still not shure how to use the "move" mentioned above or in the video

There's no one-size-fits-all answer to this question, but generally if you raise limps and then completely miss the flop, you would fold if your opponent makes a significant bet (let's say half-pot or more). If they bet something like 1/3 pot, then you'd start floating or bluff-raising more.

In your KQs example, you have good equity against their ranges pre-flop and position post-flop. This is a great spot for you long-term even if this time you miss and give up facing the pot-sized bet. Keep up with the system, it works!

freddydr87 · Jun 11, 2020

Very nice shart for preflop i liked it is very solid. Facing limpers i rather ROL with all my opening rang(like iff the limp doesnt exsist) and adding 1bb to my regular opening size,when there are 1 raiser allready i dont like to could call a lot becasu your hand could be dominated i use some middle poket pair and some suited conectors

johnnylawford · Jun 12, 2020

good follow up chapter

I particularly like the order you chose for this chapter, including it after the equity one. It's really good to relate the two and to think in terms of how your equity changes based on the action before and after you pre-flop

Collin Moshman · Jun 13, 2020

Thanks Johnny, the two concepts are very related for sure, we're glad you liked that progression

redboy23 · Jun 15, 2020

Hello CCers,

I try to stick to proposed ranges to pre-flop play and enjoy the success from a c-bet after isolating players who voluntarily limp into the pot. More often than not, limper fold to a c-bet, especially if there is an Ace or face card on the flop.

There are the sad times that I have to retire my AK facing aggression, after an uneventful flop like 2 6 T. I have not mustered that "courage" that some players have to call all bets till the river just because they have over cards.

The situation that I am having difficulty with is navigating the chronic shovers of any pocket pair. They 3--bet and continue to bet aggressively, usually ignoring all the over cards on the board. i sometimes get so annoyed at the fact that I folded a hand that I would have won had I called.

It is quite an internal battle for me and I have to try very hard not to allow their loose aggressive style to push me off my game.

Collin Moshman · Jun 16, 2020

redboy23 said:
Hello CCers,

I try to stick to proposed ranges to pre-flop play and enjoy the success from a c-bet after isolating players who voluntarily limp into the pot. More often than not, limper fold to a c-bet, especially if there is an Ace or face card on the flop.

There are the sad times that I have to retire my AK facing aggression, after an uneventful flop like 2 6 T. I have not mustered that "courage" that some players have to call all bets till the river just because they have over cards.

The situation that I am having difficulty with is navigating the chronic shovers of any pocket pair. They 3--bet and continue to bet aggressively, usually ignoring all the over cards on the board. i sometimes get so annoyed at the fact that I folded a hand that I would have won had I called.

It is quite an internal battle for me and I have to try very hard not to allow their loose aggressive style to push me off my game.

That is tough for sure. But whether they have a low pocket pair or another hand they're bluffing with, just remember that sometimes everyone folds a winner. In fact, you're supposed to! People who never fold winning hands are calling stations. Just adjust if they're bluffing a lot and then move on to the next one

PINOY · Jun 25, 2020

Great job Katie for explaining the concept of Pre-flop strategy and the factors we need to consider before getting involve with the hand on play.

Thanks for explaining about effective stacks.

The Guide to Pre-Flop (Day 6 Course Discussion)

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