Back to our discussion about value betting the river bigger.
Most of you guys seriously give your opponents WAY WAY WAY WAY too much credit. Every time you start thinking that your opponents go through the same thought process as you, please go read the "online poker is rigged" thread to see how most of your opponents are going to be thinking about poker.
99% of people you face in the micros are not going to be thinking about ranges, or what certain lines mean, or figure out what different bet sizes mean. They go "I haz pair? I call" and that's the extent of it. The vast majority of the time, it will not matter if you bet 1/2pot, 2/3 pot, or 1.5x pot. If they are going to call 1/2pot, they probably would have called at least a full pot bet.
River Value > Turn Value > Flop value. Why? Well because if you miss value on the flop, you have two streets to make up for it. So making your flop bets smaller is ok, because even if you miss some value, you can make it up on later streets with larger bets. Alternatively, missing value on the river is a disaster.
Most of you guys seriously give your opponents WAY WAY WAY WAY too much credit. Every time you start thinking that your opponents go through the same thought process as you, please go read the "online poker is rigged" thread to see how most of your opponents are going to be thinking about poker.
99% of people you face in the micros are not going to be thinking about ranges, or what certain lines mean, or figure out what different bet sizes mean. They go "I haz pair? I call" and that's the extent of it. The vast majority of the time, it will not matter if you bet 1/2pot, 2/3 pot, or 1.5x pot. If they are going to call 1/2pot, they probably would have called at least a full pot bet.
River Value > Turn Value > Flop value. Why? Well because if you miss value on the flop, you have two streets to make up for it. So making your flop bets smaller is ok, because even if you miss some value, you can make it up on later streets with larger bets. Alternatively, missing value on the river is a disaster.
Nice start to things...
PokerStars Game #27683391554: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2009/04/30 20:14:09 PT [2009/04/30 23:14:09 ET]
Table 'Klio IX' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: TRM_SHRiMP ($3.06 in chips)
Seat 2: Odyssee ´01 ($2.02 in chips)
Seat 3: leostarspkr ($3.18 in chips)
Seat 4: mrbigstuff67 ($1.74 in chips)
Seat 5: AceLazlow ($1.14 in chips)
Seat 6: tres420 ($0.47 in chips)
mrbigstuff67: posts small blind $0.01
AceLazlow: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TRM_SHRiMP [9s 9c]
tres420: calls $0.02
TRM_SHRiMP: raises $0.08 to $0.10
Odyssee ´01: folds
leostarspkr: calls $0.10
mrbigstuff67: calls $0.09
AceLazlow: folds
tres420: folds
*** FLOP *** [Qd 9d As]
mrbigstuff67: checks
TRM_SHRiMP: bets $0.13
leostarspkr: calls $0.13
mrbigstuff67: calls $0.13
*** TURN *** [Qd 9d As] [7s]
mrbigstuff67: checks
TRM_SHRiMP: bets $0.73
leostarspkr: raises $2.22 to $2.95 and is all-in
mrbigstuff67: folds
TRM_SHRiMP: calls $2.10 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($0.12) returned to leostarspkr
*** RIVER *** [Qd 9d As 7s] [9h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TRM_SHRiMP: shows [9s 9c] (four of a kind, Nines)
leostarspkr: mucks hand
TRM_SHRiMP said, "wow."
TRM_SHRiMP collected $6.09 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $6.39 | Rake $0.30
Board [Qd 9d As 7s 9h]
Seat 1: TRM_SHRiMP showed [9s 9c] and won ($6.09) with four of a kind, Nines
Seat 2: Odyssee ´01 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: leostarspkr (button) mucked [Ah 5c]
Seat 4: mrbigstuff67 (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 5: AceLazlow (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: tres420 folded before Flop
PokerStars Game #27683391554: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2009/04/30 20:14:09 PT [2009/04/30 23:14:09 ET]
Table 'Klio IX' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: TRM_SHRiMP ($3.06 in chips)
Seat 2: Odyssee ´01 ($2.02 in chips)
Seat 3: leostarspkr ($3.18 in chips)
Seat 4: mrbigstuff67 ($1.74 in chips)
Seat 5: AceLazlow ($1.14 in chips)
Seat 6: tres420 ($0.47 in chips)
mrbigstuff67: posts small blind $0.01
AceLazlow: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TRM_SHRiMP [9s 9c]
tres420: calls $0.02
TRM_SHRiMP: raises $0.08 to $0.10
Odyssee ´01: folds
leostarspkr: calls $0.10
mrbigstuff67: calls $0.09
AceLazlow: folds
tres420: folds
*** FLOP *** [Qd 9d As]
mrbigstuff67: checks
TRM_SHRiMP: bets $0.13
leostarspkr: calls $0.13
mrbigstuff67: calls $0.13
*** TURN *** [Qd 9d As] [7s]
mrbigstuff67: checks
TRM_SHRiMP: bets $0.73
leostarspkr: raises $2.22 to $2.95 and is all-in
mrbigstuff67: folds
TRM_SHRiMP: calls $2.10 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($0.12) returned to leostarspkr
*** RIVER *** [Qd 9d As 7s] [9h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TRM_SHRiMP: shows [9s 9c] (four of a kind, Nines)
leostarspkr: mucks hand
TRM_SHRiMP said, "wow."
TRM_SHRiMP collected $6.09 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $6.39 | Rake $0.30
Board [Qd 9d As 7s 9h]
Seat 1: TRM_SHRiMP showed [9s 9c] and won ($6.09) with four of a kind, Nines
Seat 2: Odyssee ´01 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: leostarspkr (button) mucked [Ah 5c]
Seat 4: mrbigstuff67 (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 5: AceLazlow (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: tres420 folded before Flop
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/learning-poker-57/put-c9-range-150762/#post1171539
That thread is cool. And DSVW's post about river betting > *.
That thread is cool. And DSVW's post about river betting > *.
Blech. Series of bad beats at the end turned my already crappy month to shit. I know it's an incredibly small sample size, and we're not supposed to care about our all-in ev, but boy was I ready for this month to end.
Extra beat: You think this volume is small? This was a record number of hands for me, due to my wife taking the kids to the grandparents for spring break, while I stayed because of work, and put in a lot more time at the tables than normal.
Extra beat: You think this volume is small? This was a record number of hands for me, due to my wife taking the kids to the grandparents for spring break, while I stayed because of work, and put in a lot more time at the tables than normal.
Attachments
Everyone has their personal pace, and hand quotas per month. For such a small sample size I would attribute a lot of that to variance.
Example: I clear about 2-3k hands a day and have been -82.40 for the past 3 days operating at a decent EV over almost 8k hands now. It's just part of the game🙁 hang in there.
Also if your looking to increase hands than obv multi-table more🙂
Example: I clear about 2-3k hands a day and have been -82.40 for the past 3 days operating at a decent EV over almost 8k hands now. It's just part of the game🙁 hang in there.
Also if your looking to increase hands than obv multi-table more🙂
To further illustrate my point about river bet sizing, I had an interesting situation come up during an earlier session.
It was a limped pot, 2 limpers and I was in the BB with 76. The board made a wheel as it was checked down giving me the nuts. There's 35c in the pot and we all have full stacks behind. I can expect to get at least one call 100% of the time if I just bet the pot. But if I shove, I only have to get called like 4% of the time to make it a more profitable play. One of them is going to be holding a 6 much more often than that and is in all likelihood going to call me with it and sometimes someone will just call and play the board because fish are stupid like that.
Obviously this is an extreme example, but it proves the point I say. In most cases, a bigger bet isn't going to deter people from calling often enough to make it less profitable than a smaller bet.
And ^^^^ lol@xxwwilxlyssxx I remember that guy from when I was at 2nl. God he is awful.
It was a limped pot, 2 limpers and I was in the BB with 76. The board made a wheel as it was checked down giving me the nuts. There's 35c in the pot and we all have full stacks behind. I can expect to get at least one call 100% of the time if I just bet the pot. But if I shove, I only have to get called like 4% of the time to make it a more profitable play. One of them is going to be holding a 6 much more often than that and is in all likelihood going to call me with it and sometimes someone will just call and play the board because fish are stupid like that.
Obviously this is an extreme example, but it proves the point I say. In most cases, a bigger bet isn't going to deter people from calling often enough to make it less profitable than a smaller bet.
And ^^^^ lol@xxwwilxlyssxx I remember that guy from when I was at 2nl. God he is awful.
Cross posted from main thread:
Stoxpoker members:
Through trulyfreepokertraining, I qualified for a whole WEEK of membership to Stox, through 5/8. With my real life, this is all the volume I'm able to put in. Looking for some video recommendations. I play 25NL FR. I'm pretty comfortable with my preflop game, I run at 14/10, but I fold too much postflop and give opponents too much credit. In need a lot of help in that area.
Any suggestions?
Stoxpoker members:
Through trulyfreepokertraining, I qualified for a whole WEEK of membership to Stox, through 5/8. With my real life, this is all the volume I'm able to put in. Looking for some video recommendations. I play 25NL FR. I'm pretty comfortable with my preflop game, I run at 14/10, but I fold too much postflop and give opponents too much credit. In need a lot of help in that area.
Any suggestions?
switch0723 said:
LOL @ me playing 5knl!!
Yeah I will start this thread if I can its where I grew up as a young micro grinder 😀
dsvw56 said:
I agree 100%, also it works when put into practice people will call with alot worse than what I give them credit for. I thought people at 50nl would think in ranges etc etc but obvs the majority don't. I wonder when they do start thinking about it hmm...
RogueRivered said:
I hope zach, c9, belgo, or one of the others reviews this, but a couple of suggestions (which I hope the experts will override).
Can you type out what stats these all represent, I was able to understand most but not all?
I like fold to 3bet and use it constantly - i keep it right next to 3bet % - and I like to have WTSD available.
How are you using W$WSF?
Limp/fold percentage is awesome - there's a great thread on this somewhere, I think from ChuckTs or FP - anyone know the link off the top of your head? I think I remember Belgo saying it was "shooting fish in a barrel" in the thread?
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My god, april was the most pointless poker month for me in a long while, only got about 12k hands in and even though i ended the month $20 up there was one point where i was at +$100 for the month so in general it sucked.
I had to buy a new laptop today as well b/c my old one was screwed, i've only managed to rescue about 2 months worth of hands as well so pretty much my whole db is gone 🙁
Goals for this month are:
- Play ONLY 10nl FR, NO 6MAX!
- Play at least 25k hands.
- Make silver with the new stars thing goin on.
- Clear $60 reload bonus.
Pleas god make may better than april b/c april was the suck
I had to buy a new laptop today as well b/c my old one was screwed, i've only managed to rescue about 2 months worth of hands as well so pretty much my whole db is gone 🙁
Goals for this month are:
- Play ONLY 10nl FR, NO 6MAX!
- Play at least 25k hands.
- Make silver with the new stars thing goin on.
- Clear $60 reload bonus.
Pleas god make may better than april b/c april was the suck
I'm really discouraged right now, I'm to the point right now that I feel like I can't win. The last 11k Hands i've operated at -92.50 at 10NL, just running brutally bad. Then this morning I felt I was finally coming out of it, posted a +3 BI session after 2 hours. I took a break, came back for another session, immediately, had middle set cracked to runner runner boat, AA<KK twice in the first 30 minutes, totally negating my previous session.... At this point it almost feels hopeless to come out of this. I've always been a winning player at both 10NL and 25NL, so frustrating.
Sorry for the rant..🙁
Sorry for the rant..🙁
Caseace48 said:
have you ever been sweated by one of our members?
im sure it'd help see of your maybe messing up in a few spots or they'll say how well your doing and then you'll know this run is nothing but bad varience
edit: is your name casease21 and do you play at ftp?
RogueRivered said:
You def can do without W$SD and W$WSF. These stats take AGES to converge and aren't really all that useful when they do. You can probably take out Squeeze% as well since basically no one squeezes light at your stakes, and it's on your Preflop Pop-up anyways if you need to take a glance. Limp-call and Call Open (Cold Call) are two that you might want to add.