**Official Micro Stakes Madness 5NL,10NL,25NL Focus Group**

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jurn8
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Nice work peel looks like your tourney experience will become useful with building your cash game roll bud !
 
Yeah fingers crossed lol, with that 20 bucks i've got myself up to $129 now, not bad considering i started last sunday down to $81 🙂 think i'm slowly transitioning into this cash game thingie majigg 😀 only $120 left to grind out and i'll be movin on up to the dizzy heights of 10nl!!
 
yeah keep working hard and grinding buddy hope to see you at 10nl next sunday !
 
Steveg1976 said:
All right, here are my thoughts on stealing. If there is anything I left out got wrong etc let me know or start debating it.

Stealing

Stealing is open raising from late position with the intention of taking “Stealing” the blinds uncontested. For our purposes I am only proposing stealing the blinds from the Button, the Cutoff and the Hijack seat. For people who have been playing awhile, blind stealing is a very common and necessary strategy for tournaments. Blind stealing does have its place in cash games as well just not exactly the same as for tournament.

The first thing to realize about stealing blinds in cash games is that the blinds usually represent a minuscule portion of a players chip stack. That is to say when playing 5nl, with the blinds of .02/.05 the big blind is only equal to 1/100th of a full stack. This is in stark contrast to Tournaments where the blinds can represent a much larger percentage of the average players stacks depending on the stage of the tournament.

Then why do it you might ask? For a couple of reasons, the first of which is free money. If the blinds are weak tight players they will often surrender them without a fight even if they know you are stealing. Good players know that the blinds are just the cost of playing and won’t go crazy defending their blinds as they will be OOP (out of Position) the entire hand. Bad players will look at their cards and decide well J2o is too weak so I will fold. That is the first reason. Not very lucrative for sure but some players are so weak tight they will NEVER play back at a blind stealer with out a monster hand so if you find these players steal away.

The second reason why a player is going to want to engage in blind stealing is image manipulation. If the blinds know you are a blind stealer and are a somewhat thinking players they know you can’t always have a hand good enough to call a re-raise (3bet) so they will start 3-betting you light. Admittedly at the micro levels there aren’t a lot of thinking players but we all start somewhere and if you are going to be stealing blinds you need to understand how to counter it. Now we have a situation where the blinds think you are just a brazen thief and will steal with ATC, now is the time where with a little luck you can trap them into playing a big pot OOP.

Now you have been stealing the blinds are playing back at you, now is when you need to tighten back up. If you are lucky enough to pick up a big hand AA-JJ etc, and raise, the blinds could very well think you are just stealing again and will be 3betting you with a much wider range than they would typically have, now you can drop the hammer and 4-bet shove on them or smooth call and see a flop. Now because of you earlier thievery you have created a very favorable situation for yourself, playing a big pot in position.

It is important to note that just because the blinds might be playing back as you that don’t think they don’t have a big hand, there is no rule against the blinds being dealt wired Aces. As always with poker it depends is usually the correct answer will need to be paying attention to the your opponents play.

Above are a couple of reasons to steal, there are also reason/situations that you don’t want to steal. Don’t steal as often when the blinds call a lot if you aren’t a great post flop player. Don’t steal if you can make more money off of your opponents because you can outplay them post flop

I don't play or know much about 6-max so I not sure how much or if any of this applies there.
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Very good stuff Steve. Speaking as a cash game player, stealing is very profitable indeed. As you say it's only a small proportion of our effective stacks, but when you consider the late positions are our most profitable positions (and we all know why that is!) then this is down to the fact that as TAG players we should be stealing on a regular basis against the correct type of opponents in the blinds.

For 6max this is even more valid, and against certain opposition it's basically profitable to raise ATC from the button say. Another point that leads on from this and why we try to steal from late position (and again why it's highly profitable) is that even if we are called on occasions, we can follow up with a continuation bet and usually take the pot down uncontested.

P.S. If you guys are open limping from late position..... then stop now! You are leaving $$$ on the table if you do this!
 
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Jagsti said:
Very good stuff Steve. Speaking as a cash game player, stealing is very profitable indeed. As you say it's only a small proportion of our effective stacks, but when you consider the late positions are our most profitable positions (and we all know why that is!) then this is down to the fact that as TAG players we should be stealing on a regular basis against the correct type of opponents in the blinds.

For 6max this is even more valid, and against certain opposition it's basically profitable to raise ATC from the button say. Another point that leads on from this and why we try to steal from late position (and again why it's highly profitable) is that even if we are called on occasions, we can follow up with a continuation bet and usually take the pot down uncontested.

P.S. If you guys are open limping from late position..... then stop now! You are leaving $$$ on the table if you do this!
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ok I've been following this thread, and you guys are doing a great job. I don't want to post a ton here just because you guys are doing just fine and I think you'll learn a lot more in research/posting/discussing with players at similar levels. I do have a few comments on this though, and the importance of stealing in cash games, hopefully it's helpful.


imo the stack size really shouldn't factor much into whether or not we steal. For example if we raise the SB 3 big blinds, the BB has to fold 62.5% or more to make it directly profitable whether the stack sizes are 3 BBs and it's a shove or whether the stack sizes are 2 billion BBs. I mentioned this in another thread but basically the blinds are there to generate action. With no blinds everyone would fold anything but AA. The reason people raise less than AA starts with stealing the blinds. Now in certain games where there are a lot of calling stations, it's better to not steal as much because people basically over-adjust and defend way too wide and against those people implied odds are your best friend. So if you are playing against bad players who defend too wide, you are definitely correct that stealing in tourneys is more important. But if you're playing against competent players, stealing in cash games is just as important imo.
 
Great post, Steve! And like Jag said, I think this is more relevant in 6 max due to less hands being dealt. Just like being on a short table in a tourney.
 
Hey guys, i just updated my blog after my first week of cash game playing, please read it lol and a few comments wouldnt go a miss 😛 hehe
 
orangepeeleo said:
Hey guys, i just updated my blog after my first week of cash game playing, please read it lol and a few comments wouldnt go a miss 😛 hehe
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Nice posting on the blog! It's nice to have good sessions.
 
Officially Reppin CC at the tables now !! Wahoo !! lol
 

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thanks for the quick comments on the blog guys 🙂 jurn, i forgot to put in my stats for my last session, first time 4 tabling and it seems to have done the trick re: vpip, my stats were 14.65/9.18/5 (which might be a bit too aggro lol) but the vpip/pfr stats are starting to look good now i've added another 2 tables, the overall stats are skewed a bit by my bad first 2 days, as i play more 4-table sessions this week that'll drop quite quickly i think, i felt that once i'd got used to 2-tabling i was getting a bit bored sometimes so i added another 2 to see how i went and try and tighten me up and i'm glad i did 🙂 gone from 1-tabling @ 27/9 last sunday to 4tabling @ 14/9 which is a HUGE improvement for me

again thanks for reading and commenting, couldnt have turned my week around without this thread and the HA section so thanks everyone
 
GL buddy, keep working hard as 2.2k is a very small sample but beware of downswongs!! lol Glad to see your off to a good start!
 
Yeah, this thread rocks! And I'm gonna start posting in my blog again. I think it will help me stay in control for the most part.
 
Jurn8 said:
Officially Reppin CC at the tables now !! Wahoo !! lol
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It greatly disturbs me to see the color you choose to write the ME balloon in.

..are you trying to tell us something ?
 
eNTy said:
It greatly disturbs me to see the color you choose to write the ME balloon in.

..are you trying to tell us something ?
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yeah.. but ssshh!!!
 
Tried 5 tabling today for a short period. Had four tables up and felt good so I added one. Went down $6.50 so I might stick with just 4 for a while. But it was fun!
 
I am depressed.
Poker is sucking the life out of me.

I have been unable to win ANYTHING since december it seems.
If it doesn't improve by end of Feb. I'm quitting poker for good.
 
eNTy said:
I am depressed.
Poker is sucking the life out of me.

I have been unable to win ANYTHING since december it seems.
If it doesn't improve by end of Feb. I'm quitting poker for good.
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Suck it up. If you can't run bad for a month or so, you need to quit.

For reference, I'm basically just under break-even for my last 100K hands (including dropping 15 BIs when I moved up to 100nl) before rakeback/bonuses.
 
WVHillbilly said:
Suck it up. If you can't run bad for a month or so, you need to quit.

For reference, I'm basically just under break-even for my last 100K hands (including dropping 15 BIs when I moved up to 100nl) before rakeback/bonuses.
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Just depressing that half of my poker career is this run bad/lose money stuff.
that's why I'm thinking of quitting, if I can't handle this stuff and spew off more money there's no point you know.
 
eNTy said:
Just depressing that half of my poker career is this run bad/lose money stuff.
that's why I'm thinking of quitting, if I can't handle this stuff and spew off more money there's no point you know.
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Why not drop down a level for a bit or have a week or two's break?

Poker isn't something that you have to do so maybe its time to call it quits, maybe its not. Just treat it like any other hobby. If you enjoy it .. continue.. if you don't then do something else.

We all know about perseverance, but people persevere at things they enjoy. It doesn't matter what you do, at times you will be fed up with it... take some time off.. if you enjoy it you will return.. if you don't then you will find something else to occupy yourself.

Don't let poker.. or any other activity, dictate your life. There is no shame in quitting... its just a hobby.

Personally, I think a break will do you some good and you will return to poker revived 😉
 
eNTy said:
Just depressing that half of my poker career is this run bad/lose money stuff.
that's why I'm thinking of quitting, if I can't handle this stuff and spew off more money there's no point you know.
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Have u tried reading any poker books that focus more on they psychology part of poker?
Maybe try that before giving up.
I would recament looking for a copy of the poker mindset,pretty good book that might help u through your rough patch.

Any way GL buddy hope u get past this bullshit as soon as possible🙂
 
whats that zen book people praise about? maybe you should try that
 
I have a couple of questions about this graph.

For one, is this normal? I just started trying to multi table 4 tables at a time.

Second, is there a reason why I'm coming in so far below EV?
 

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sindri_93 said:
Have u tried reading any poker books that focus more on they psychology part of poker?
Maybe try that before giving up.
I would recament looking for a copy of the poker mindset,pretty good book that might help u through your rough patch.

Any way GL buddy hope u get past this bullshit as soon as possible🙂
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I have it on my bookshelf, haven't started in it though..
 
WVHillbilly said:
Suck it up. If you can't run bad for a month or so, you need to quit.

For reference, I'm basically just under break-even for my last 100K hands (including dropping 15 BIs when I moved up to 100nl) before rakeback/bonuses.
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This is imo, my biggest weakness. I just get too easily discouraged if I start losing. When I win, I am a genius.. so when I lose I am a dumb ass. 😉 That is the fallacy.
 
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