**Official Micro Stakes Madness 5NL,10NL,25NL Focus Group**

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jurn8
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Your earlier points seemed valid, MAT (overbetting really should only be used for value since as a bluff you can almost always bet less with the same fold equity; balance is overrated) but really your last few posts are barely written in the english language. If you want to make a point, slow down and actually think about what you're writing so we can actually understand you.

You want to build a big pot preflop because you have a massive equity advantage over your opponent's range, and because you want to get money in vs AQ or TT or whatever before the flop scares them into shutting down.

I don't see why you guys are actually debating balance for micro stakes though. GTO <<<<<<<<<<<<< Exploitative strategy where people don't pay attention.

That means that you can make plays that are in theory exploitable (like raising more with your big hands preflop), but that your opponents won't adjust to in practice. If people don't take note of when you raise more with aces before the flop, that means that you're missing out on tons of value by not raising bigger vs raising 3bb to disguise your hand.

Or a better example would be postflop barreling. You don't have to worry about balancing your range by bluff barreling (if it doesn't seem profitable in that specific situation). Simply bet when you have a hand, check/give up when you don't, and bluff when it seems profitable (like villain has really low wtsd or a perfect bluffing card comes on the turn etc.)

DON'T WORRY ABOUT BALANCE.

Having said all that, as you move up in stakes you'll have to shift more towards a gto style game since players start getting more observant and therefore you have to start balancing your range more, so keep that in mind.
 
ChuckTs said:
Your earlier points seemed valid, MAT (overbetting really should only be used for value since as a bluff you can almost always bet less with the same fold equity; balance is overrated) but really your last few posts are barely written in the english language. If you want to make a point, slow down and actually think about what you're writing so we can actually understand you.

You want to build a big pot preflop because you have a massive equity advantage over your opponent's range, and because you want to get money in vs AQ or TT or whatever before the flop scares them into shutting down.

I don't see why you guys are actually debating balance for micro stakes though. GTO <<<<<<<<<<<<< Exploitative strategy where people don't pay attention.

That means that you can make plays that are in theory exploitable (like raising more with your big hands preflop), but that your opponents won't adjust to in practice. If people don't take note of when you raise more with aces before the flop, that means that you're missing out on tons of value by not raising bigger vs raising 3bb to disguise your hand.

Or a better example would be postflop barreling. You don't have to worry about balancing your range by bluff barreling (if it doesn't seem profitable in that specific situation). Simply bet when you have a hand, check/give up when you don't, and bluff when it seems profitable (like villain has really low wtsd or a perfect bluffing card comes on the turn etc.)

DON'T WORRY ABOUT BALANCE.

Having said all that, as you move up in stakes you'll have to shift more towards a gto style game since players start getting more observant and therefore you have to start balancing your range more, so keep that in mind.
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Yes this is it though. People "mix it up" and relate to tactics certain players use as "ABC" poker. Like me. What they do not understand is that "ABC" poker is not ABC poker in motion. It is extremely complex and the tactics are versatile. "Mixing it up" is more simple than playing aces.
 
ChuckTs said:
Game theory optimal. Perfectly balanced strategy.
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In addition it also basically means you cannot be exploited at all, because basically all decisions our opponent makes are neutral-ev. Of course that also means that they can not possibly make a mistake. Therefore if you play a GTO strategy you will lose to the rake. Bryce had a great article on this and related it to rock paper scissors.

A GTO strategy would be randomly picking every time. But say you know that your opponent loves rock and is going to go 50% rock, 25% paper, and 25% scissors. The way to exploit him would be to pick paper. But if we start picking paper 100% he'll start picking rock less and adjust to us. But if instead we now do say a 40% paper, 30% rock, and 30% scissors strategy it's balanced enough so that he may not realize we're exploiting his mistake, while we're still winning overall.

Now equate that to poker. Someone is stealing a ton preflop and we're in the blinds. In a vacuum, we think that 3-betting 100% and folding to a 4-bet is profitable. But if we do it 100% of the time, our opponent will catch on and either stop stealing as much, or start 4-betting us light. So we want to 3-bet enough to take advantage of the fact that he's stealing light but also want to do it with enough hands like AA/KK to give our opponent a reason to not 4-bet, even if 4-betting and folding to a shove by us would be the optimal play.

There are a million places you could apply it, but basically balancing your range comes down to exploiting an opponent and trying to do your best to not let him know he's being exploited.
 
why is it bad or not as profitable to try and play GTO at micro's? Surely this is going to become part of our game later on so why not get into good habits earlier on?

We are going to have to make the change sometime we move up so surely dont get why we cant do it now and have to wait until we are up at 100nl?
 
Jurn8 said:
why is it bad or not as profitable to try and play GTO at micro's? Surely this is going to become part of our game later on so why not get into good habits earlier on?

We are going to have to make the change sometime we move up so surely dont get why we cant do it now and have to wait until we are up at 100nl?
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It's bad because it unnecessarily limits your winrate. You'll win so much more just constantly exploiting your opponents horrible play without the need to balance your ranges. Basically you shouldn't play GTO because your opponents don't make you play GTO.
 
They are saying that in micros if we just call with AA trying to mix it up, we are losing a lot of value. We should bet our big hands for value, because at micros we stand a better chance at getting callers.
 
Jurn8 said:
why is it bad or not as profitable to try and play GTO at micro's? Surely this is going to become part of our game later on so why not get into good habits earlier on?

We are going to have to make the change sometime we move up so surely dont get why we cant do it now and have to wait until we are up at 100nl?
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Becuase GTO (I keep seeing Grand theft Auto, need to play less xbox 🙂) isn't always the most profitable. From No Limit Hold'em Theory and Practice. I don't have the book here but he makes the argument that against some players (Very applicable at the micros) that they are so weak and make such big mistakes that you can take Non-Optimal lines against them to exploit their weaknesses and make more money than playing optimally would.

GTO is a defensive (non-exploitable) strategy as opposed to an agressive strategy (exploiting your opponents).
 
Jurn8 said:
why is it bad or not as profitable to try and play GTO at micro's? Surely this is going to become part of our game later on so why not get into good habits earlier on?

We are going to have to make the change sometime we move up so surely dont get why we cant do it now and have to wait until we are up at 100nl?
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Read my last post on that. If there are hundreds of opponents that aren't picking up on your exploitations there's no reason to balance.

Also note that it's not just a limit thing, but an opponent thing. If you are exploiting an opponent and he doesn't adjust at all, there's no reason to balance. If you will never see this opponent again, no reason to balance. It only becomes important against solid regs you see again and again who are adjusting to what you do.
 
Again. who uses this crap. GTO's? Hud's? a mean wtf.
I dont really care because I know that no technology will outplay me at a table. There are chips, cards and cash. Phil Hellmuth didnt use a "hud" in his eleven world series victories? Or do the top online players who play high stakes use GTO's and any of this "optimal 3betting" bull****!! I cant stand to read anymore stupid posts from people pretending they are helping out beginners when they dont have a clue what they are doing! Im no master but in these basic beginner situations its complicated yet easy to learn when one is eager. As always.

There is also no need to openly declare that this is a microstakes thread because your game, is your game. At any table. It varies obviously but you should be fairly solid in most situations at all times.
 
zachvac said:
Read my last post on that. If there are hundreds of opponents that aren't picking up on your exploitations there's no reason to balance.

Also note that it's not just a limit thing, but an opponent thing. If you are exploiting an opponent and he doesn't adjust at all, there's no reason to balance. If you will never see this opponent again, no reason to balance. It only becomes important against solid regs you see again and again who are adjusting to what you do.
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Reading this with great interest.

One thing id like to ask though is this.

You say there is no need to balance your play against an opponent who dosnt adjust, which I can understand.

However surely you wont know whether or not he adjusts until he adjusts.

Surely it would be better to play a balanced stratagy at first and slowly unbalance it and see if there is a slight adjustment, if not play harder and harder.

By playing an unbalanced stratagy from the beginning, surely you loose the advantage should he quickly adjust.

What are your thoughts on that?
 
MATelford said:
Again. who uses this crap. GTO's? Hud's? a mean wtf.
I dont really care because I know that no technology will outplay me at a table. There are chips, cards and cash. Phil Hellmuth didnt use a "hud" in his eleven world series victories? Or do the top online players who play high stakes use GTO's and any of this "optimal 3betting" bull****!! I cant stand to read anymore stupid posts from people pretending they are helping out beginners when they dont have a clue what they are doing! Im no master but in these basic beginner situations its complicated yet easy to learn when one is eager. As always.

There is also no need to openly declare that this is a microstakes thread because your game, is your game. At any table. It varies obviously but you should be fairly solid in most situations at all times.
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Umm what? ChuckT specifically said NOT to use GTO, lol. HUD's are unbelievably useful and I am sure if there ever was a HUD for live play (That would be crazy) the pros WOULD use it.

As for the people Helping, they are helping by discussing "Optimal 3-bet %" wether you understand what they are talking about or not.

Also this thread is called a micro stakes thread only to reference the limits of players. It doesn't make sense to discuss different levels in the same threads because players will be thinking about poker at much higher levels of safistication, 100nl players are better than 10nl player, ldo.

If you don't like it you don't have to read it, lol.
 
MATelford said:
Again. who uses this crap. GTO's? Hud's? a mean wtf.
I dont really care because I know that no technology will outplay me at a table. There are chips, cards and cash. Phil Hellmuth didnt use a "hud" in his eleven world series victories? Or do the top online players who play high stakes use GTO's and any of this "optimal 3betting" bull****!! I cant stand to read anymore stupid posts from people pretending they are helping out beginners when they dont have a clue what they are doing! Im no master but in these basic beginner situations its complicated yet easy to learn when one is eager. As always.

There is also no need to openly declare that this is a microstakes thread because your game, is your game. At any table. It varies obviously but you should be fairly solid in most situations at all times.
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Then stop reading this thread and go start your own about playing online poker without a hud and playing "fairly solid in most situations at all times". lol. You're making a fool of yourself and uglying up this awesome thread.
 
Stu_Ungar said:
Reading this with great interest.

One thing id like to ask though is this.

You say there is no need to balance your play against an opponent who dosnt adjust, which I can understand.

However surely you wont know whether or not he adjusts until he adjusts.

Surely it would be better to play a balanced stratagy at first and slowly unbalance it and see if there is a slight adjustment, if not play harder and harder.

By playing an unbalanced stratagy from the beginning, surely you loose the advantage should he quickly adjust.

What are your thoughts on that?
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Balanced play is good vs observant thinking players. Most 10nl and under players are the opposite of that. Why play a style of play that is best suited vs good players if you know the player pool is mostly filled with bad players?

Play exploitable until they adjust. Steal %100 of buttons until they start defending. Cbet lots until they start floating or raising you.
 
MATelford said:
Again. who uses this crap. GTO's? Hud's? a mean wtf.
I dont really care because I know that no technology will outplay me at a table. There are chips, cards and cash. Phil Hellmuth didnt use a "hud" in his eleven world series victories? Or do the top online players who play high stakes use GTO's and any of this "optimal 3betting" bull****!! I cant stand to read anymore stupid posts from people pretending they are helping out beginners when they dont have a clue what they are doing! Im no master but in these basic beginner situations its complicated yet easy to learn when one is eager. As always.

There is also no need to openly declare that this is a microstakes thread because your game, is your game. At any table. It varies obviously but you should be fairly solid in most situations at all times.
Click to expand...

Well we all use this crap, huds and the like.

You dont have to read the post.. honestly we wont be offended if you dont.

If you have ideas which can help beginners then post them. If others agree with your ideas they will openly agree. If they disagree then they will openly disagree.

There are a lot of experienced players on the forum so bad ideas are often challanged and the posters are forced to offer explainations, if their explainations are flawed.. it will be pointed out.

I'm happy to read and take in anything you, or anyone else, offers.. but if I see a lot of players, whom I consider to be of a good standard, critasise something is said.. please dont be offended if I choose to accept what they say.

If you want to be considered a knowlegable player on this forum, simply clock up a couple of hunderd usefull posts.. people will listen.

Ok well I think you will take a bit of a flaming for the tone of your post... you had to expect that before you posted it!!

So hopefully we can keep the flaming to a minimum and get back on track with the thread.. which is taking us micro-limit players to the 1K NL tables in the shortest possible time !!! 😀
 
Been incredibly busy and am way behind on hands this month. Probably make a blog post tonight but I have a lot going on and it sucks not being able to grind it out everyday. Meh, more later.
 
MATelford said:
Again. who uses this crap. GTO's? Hud's? a mean wtf.
I dont really care because I know that no technology will outplay me at a table. There are chips, cards and cash. Phil Hellmuth didnt use a "hud" in his eleven world series victories? Or do the top online players who play high stakes use GTO's and any of this "optimal 3betting" bull****!! I cant stand to read anymore stupid posts from people pretending they are helping out beginners when they dont have a clue what they are doing! Im no master but in these basic beginner situations its complicated yet easy to learn when one is eager. As always.

There is also no need to openly declare that this is a microstakes thread because your game, is your game. At any table. It varies obviously but you should be fairly solid in most situations at all times.
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hi,

if you want to ramble on about how much you hate HUDs and whatever the heck GTOs are and stuff, start a new thread, please don't threadcrap here, thanks. lots of people are finding this thread to be a valuable resource and we don't really appreciate people trying to ruin that because they think they know better than everyone else.

this will be the last post in this thread responding to the quoted post too, k?
 
Stu_Ungar said:
Reading this with great interest.

One thing id like to ask though is this.

You say there is no need to balance your play against an opponent who dosnt adjust, which I can understand.

However surely you wont know whether or not he adjusts until he adjusts.

Surely it would be better to play a balanced stratagy at first and slowly unbalance it and see if there is a slight adjustment, if not play harder and harder.

By playing an unbalanced stratagy from the beginning, surely you loose the advantage should he quickly adjust.

What are your thoughts on that?
Click to expand...

The great thing about being better than your opponents (which generally if you're not you should find a new table 🙂) is that you will generally notice and adjust quicker and better than them. When they adjust they are simply playing better than the way you were playing earlier. But basically especially at the micros, you see so many people that balancing simply doesn't matter because you won't see the same person again.

But back to the first one, generally I like to steal close to 100% of buttons, but let's use 90% for this example. I do this until they adjust. Say someone adjusts well by 3-betting us light a certain percentage of the time. Let's say the player is so good that he is playing absolutely perfect against our 90% button stealing range. Now what happens if we only start stealing 75%? And the best part about HUDs is let's say we continue to steal 90% against other opponents. This one opponent will think we are still stealing ~90% and play as such, while we are really stealing 75% and exploiting him without him really knowing it.

Anyway that is all theoretical though, because the better option when you find someone who adjusts to you perfectly is to find another seat, especially at the micros. The fact is that until you get well up the limits (5knl+?) no one will even come close to exploiting you perfectly.

In fact in general at the micros, people will try to adjust, but do it wrong. When you steal a ton from them, they'll see that and then start to defend their blinds lighter and call a lot. Against these people we want them to see we are stealing wide and we want them to adjust. Then we get to play pots in position against a pretty weak hand range.

Hope this helped, although I think you really don't need to worry about a lot of this unless you are playing really solid thinking players. I don't worry about it a ton at 200nl. Especially at FR even most of the solid regs play a pretty straightforward ABC style. If there's a dry flop and they missed, they'll fold to most cbets. If they hit part of it they may call flop and fold turn. So don't worry about balancing too much. The extent you need to balance at the micros is making bet/raise sizes the same (ie not raising more with better hands, that's basically the same principle) and cbetting most flops with made hands and air. Anything further than that you are probably costing yoursef money because your opponents probably won't even realize what you're doing.
 
ChuckTs said:
Then stop reading this thread and go start your own about playing online poker without a hud and playing "fairly solid in most situations at all times". lol. You're making a fool of yourself and uglying up this awesome thread.
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+1 stop cluttering our thread with your comments, your obviously trying to get posts to become a freeroll whore. Ban hammer IMO!

EDIT: Sh*t! didnt see dorkus post !!! Sorry 🙁
 
^^^Ban Jurno!!!!!!!!😛😛😛

BTW, did I do the right thing here? This crap has been happening to me all day and I'm just sick of it. This guy was ~ 50/5/5 with 150 hands on him. I'm just about to give up trying to make poker work for me. I checked the turn here hoping that someone would hit a little something and bet out plus give me a chance to make my flush.

Stage #1251851195: Holdem No Limit $0.10 - 2009-02-09 16:12:48 (ET)
Table: BRANDYWINE AVE (real money) Seat #6 is the dealer
Seat 6 - DCRYS1979 ($7.42 in chips)
Seat 1 - TIPINHO85 ($10.84 in chips)
Seat 2 - LUCKY JAZ ($5.19 in chips)
Seat 3 - LILPR1NCESS ($9.78 in chips)
Seat 4 - ORRI3230 ($1.54 in chips)
Seat 5 - WHIGHTY7 ($6.67 in chips)
TIPINHO85 - Posts small blind $0.05
LUCKY JAZ - Posts big blind $0.10
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to DCRYS1979 [Kh Ad]
LILPR1NCESS - Folds
ORRI3230 - Folds
WHIGHTY7 - Raises $0.20 to $0.20
DCRYS1979 - Raises $0.70 to $0.70
TIPINHO85 - Calls $0.65
LUCKY JAZ - Folds
WHIGHTY7 - Calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [4d Kd Jd]
TIPINHO85 - Checks
WHIGHTY7 - Checks
DCRYS1979 - Checks
*** TURN *** [4d Kd Jd] [6h]
TIPINHO85 - Bets $2.20
WHIGHTY7 - Folds
DCRYS1979 - All-In(Raise) $6.72 to $6.72
TIPINHO85 - Calls $4.52
*** RIVER *** [4d Kd Jd 6h] [3s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TIPINHO85 - Shows [Kc Ks] (Three of a kind, kings)
DCRYS1979 - Shows [Kh Ad] (One pair, kings)
TIPINHO85 Collects $14.86 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($15.64) | Rake ($0.78)
Board [4d Kd Jd 6h 3s]
Seat 1: TIPINHO85 (small blind) won Total ($14.86) HI🙁$14.86) with Three of a kind, kings [Kc Ks - P:Ks,B:Kd,P:Kc,B:Jd,B:6h]
Seat 2: LUCKY JAZ (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: LILPR1NCESS Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: ORRI3230 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: WHIGHTY7 Folded on the TURN
Seat 6: DCRYS1979 (dealer) HI:lost with One pair, kings [Kh Ad - P:Kh,B:Kd,P:Ad,B:Jd,B:6h]
 
dg1267 said:
^^^Ban Jurno!!!!!!!!😛😛😛

BTW, did I do the right thing here? This crap has been happening to me all day and I'm just sick of it. This guy was ~ 50/5/5 with 150 hands on him. I'm just about to give up trying to make poker work for me. I checked the turn here hoping that someone would hit a little something and bet out plus give me a chance to make my flush.

Stage #1251851195: Holdem No Limit $0.10 - 2009-02-09 16:12:48 (ET)
Table: BRANDYWINE AVE (Real Money) Seat #6 is the dealer
Seat 6 - DCRYS1979 ($7.42 in chips)
Seat 1 - TIPINHO85 ($10.84 in chips)
Seat 2 - LUCKY JAZ ($5.19 in chips)
Seat 3 - LILPR1NCESS ($9.78 in chips)
Seat 4 - ORRI3230 ($1.54 in chips)
Seat 5 - WHIGHTY7 ($6.67 in chips)
TIPINHO85 - Posts small blind $0.05
LUCKY JAZ - Posts big blind $0.10
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to DCRYS1979 [Kh Ad]
LILPR1NCESS - Folds
ORRI3230 - Folds
WHIGHTY7 - Raises $0.20 to $0.20
DCRYS1979 - Raises $0.70 to $0.70
TIPINHO85 - Calls $0.65
LUCKY JAZ - Folds
WHIGHTY7 - Calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [4d Kd Jd]
TIPINHO85 - Checks
WHIGHTY7 - Checks
DCRYS1979 - Checks
*** TURN *** [4d Kd Jd] 6♥
TIPINHO85 - Bets $2.20
WHIGHTY7 - Folds
DCRYS1979 - All-In(Raise) $6.72 to $6.72
TIPINHO85 - Calls $4.52
*** RIVER *** [4d Kd Jd 6h] 3♠
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TIPINHO85 - Shows [Kc Ks] (Three of a kind, kings)
DCRYS1979 - Shows [Kh Ad] (One pair, kings)
TIPINHO85 Collects $14.86 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($15.64) | Rake ($0.78)
Board [4d Kd Jd 6h 3s]
Seat 1: TIPINHO85 (small blind) won Total ($14.86) HI🙁$14.86) with Three of a kind, kings [Kc Ks - P:Ks,B:Kd,P:Kc,B:Jd,B:6h]
Seat 2: LUCKY JAZ (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: LILPR1NCESS Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: ORRI3230 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: WHIGHTY7 Folded on the TURN
Seat 6: DCRYS1979 (dealer) HI:lost with One pair, kings [Kh Ad - P:Kh,B:Kd,P:Ad,B:Jd,B:6h]
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In the future post this in the HA section.
But u really should be paying him on the turn imo,the check is horrible and the river shove is almost as bad imo.
You have TPTK+nut FD= ton of equity,equity u lose every time u check and a card like the 3s hits.
You got a strong but vulnurable hand so u have to protect it+get value from worse.....BET! 😉
Dont mind calling the river but hat raising it.
 
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