I understood the concept very well and it is really very effective. For me, the 10bb mark is a great push / fold sign that offers a great chance to double and gain more life in the MTT. It is very useful because the villain's call range is not always adjusted.
Are these guidelines the same for MTT and SNG or if the tournament with rewards for knocking out, they do not depend on the type of tournament hyper, turbo, slow?
I can’t understand the fifth principle:” There’s 25% or more of our stack sitting in the middle.” Could you explain by example?
Quiz
1. Hand AsQs. Was one raise. Effective stack 21bb and there are ante. It is a good place to push. Equity A Q is 40% versus 5% of the tight range. This is the worst case scenario.
In the video, this the hand is not finished. I wonder how it ended.
2. Hand Ah8d. Was one raise. Effective stack 18bb and there are ante. This is the right moment to a shove. Equity A 8 is 28 % versus 5% of the tight range. Equity A 8 is 35 % versus 11% of range.
If the tournament is very important and you want to make your way as far as possible, based on the equity of the hand against the best ranges of the opponent, you can decide to play through fold.
3. Hand Ad10h. There were two limps. Effective stack 18bb and there are ante. There are 440 chips in the bank; 3 bet will be 1,500 chips or 15 bb, so immediately a shove.
4. Hand JhAd. Was one raise. Effective stack 17bb and there are ante. This is a good moment to a shove.
5. Hand 5d 5h. . Was one raise. Effective stack 20bb and there are ante. This is a place to a shove… but this is also the final table with three opponents. The reward for the 3rd place will be less than the second. The pair is low, so I fold in this place.
I can’t understand the fifth principle:” There’s 25% or more of our stack sitting in the middle.” Could you explain by example?
Quiz
1. Hand AsQs. Was one raise. Effective stack 21bb and there are ante. It is a good place to push. Equity A Q is 40% versus 5% of the tight range. This is the worst case scenario.
In the video, this the hand is not finished. I wonder how it ended.
2. Hand Ah8d. Was one raise. Effective stack 18bb and there are ante. This is the right moment to a shove. Equity A 8 is 28 % versus 5% of the tight range. Equity A 8 is 35 % versus 11% of range.
If the tournament is very important and you want to make your way as far as possible, based on the equity of the hand against the best ranges of the opponent, you can decide to play through fold.
3. Hand Ad10h. There were two limps. Effective stack 18bb and there are ante. There are 440 chips in the bank; 3 bet will be 1,500 chips or 15 bb, so immediately a shove.
4. Hand JhAd. Was one raise. Effective stack 17bb and there are ante. This is a good moment to a shove.
5. Hand 5d 5h. . Was one raise. Effective stack 20bb and there are ante. This is a place to a shove… but this is also the final table with three opponents. The reward for the 3rd place will be less than the second. The pair is low, so I fold in this place.
ronn6583 said:
They're only good general guidelines and you are often correct to modify them based on the specific format or situation. For example, you have a better risk/reward ratio shoving with knockouts and can get away with overbet shoving pre-flop more if you like. I wouldn't though change them usually based on tournament speed.
Suppose the starting pot is $250 and our stack is $1000. Then there's 25% of our stack ($250 / $1000) sitting in the middle and we have a good risk/reward ratio shoving. Sorry if that was unclear in the text -- hope it makes sense here!
I liked this video as it actually challenges a mindset of not wanting to risk too many chips versus making the right play at the right time. Many passive players will be trying to dearly (and expensively to them in the long run) hold on to chips and min raise in such situations where they really should be shoving. The impact of antes on the shove decision is one I too hadn’t appreciated but will now incorporate that into my thinking.
The explanation of the reason for shoving was clear and makes it easier to apply and maximise opportunity to win.
Thank you
The explanation of the reason for shoving was clear and makes it easier to apply and maximise opportunity to win.
Thank you
BentleyBoy said:
Thanks BentleyBoy and you're right that it's counter-intuitive. You want to ladder up and not spew off your stack, but then most of the money is in the top places and the best results come from taking lots of calculated risks late in the game. Glad this chapter helped!
I think push fold is an important element of poker! And here the main thing is to know which push range will be profitable!There are profitability tables for pushing from positions, and if you study them, you will greatly strengthen your game!
I started using these guidelines. and it often helps, when you're a tiny stack, to slowly or sometimes fast build your stack back up. However, when I'm a big stack, I haven't had much success with this so far (maybe just not enough experience, or something I haven't taken into account - I should try to find one of those and analyze it).
zam220 said:
I could be wrong but I am a little confused by the whole concept of push from position profitability tables. You could have 8 guys to go through or one guy to go if you push your chips all in with AA you can still get them cracked or your A10 can be beat by AJ. Making up rules to automatically push for from position in any card game you play in whether it be $10 buy in or $1000 buy in seems risky. How can it be profitable when you only need to have one bad beat or one cooler in a tourney to knock you out whether it is early in the tourney or late in the tourney. Poker isnt like black jack I dont think you can have hard and fast rules to play by religiously that prove to be profitable over along period of time. The reason I say this is because there are so many instances in just one tourney where all your chips are on the line but you dont get paid prize money everytime you go all-in in one tourney if you are successful. Like you get paid in black jack after every successful hand. You have to risk those chips many times in the course of one tourney before you get the prize money. If you were paid off every-time you went all in and took something out of the tourney that would be different and if you could stay in the tourney after getting knocked out and having all your chips taken or being able to re-buy when in the money push fold charts would make more sense to me. But particularly late in a tourney when the blinds are really high i think push fold charts are even less effective. Like there seems to be an overwhelming consensus or unwritten rule that when you get down to 10 - 15 bigs you should shove with any half decent hand. I think when you are late in a tourney or final tabling a tourney 10 - 15 big blinds is a heck of a lot of chips still to play with you are looking at still having about 5 - 8 full orbits of play that is 45 - 72 hands especially in on line play where it seems like you get a premium holding (preflop) at least once every two orbits. You can still wait on a premium hand for a double up. You don't have to shove your Ax as soon as it comes.Also late in tourneys or on final tables alot of the time the big stack has between 25 and 50 bigs max so the stack sizing is maximized and 10 -15 bigs is a good chunck of the total pie. IMO
mclaughlinph said:
The way to think about these decisions is in terms of expected value.
** If you shove a hand like AT into three players or five players, you can win or lose.
** If you shove with a stack of 25bb or 8bb, you can win or lose.
But these factors change the expected value of our play. I.e. based on the number of players, tournament state, and effective stack, we win or lose more money by taking certain shove-fold decisions. And that's what we're trying to figure out here -- how to win the most money on average through optimal shove/fold play.
acidburnfx said:
Good question. Here's a rule of thumb:
Typically we only want to limp when we're in the small blind; everyone has folded to us; and the effective stack is > 15bb. (Even at, say, 18bb open-shoving the small blind is often a good play.)
