Is Online Poker Rigged?

Chipmaster45 · Oct 26, 2018

Is Online Poker Rigged????

No, I do not believe that it is rigged, and I have played online for years. I actually believe the reality to be much more complicated and utterly hilarious, if it wasn't so frustrating as well.

I believe the system is actually flawed in two fundamentally hopelessly broken ways.

1. I firmly believe that the random number generator is, for all intents and purposes, completely broken. Whether a result of flawed programming, or worse biased programming (based on certain preset parameters), the result is the same: uneven game play. It is only when a complete overhaul of what passes as an RNG these days is done that we can actually attempt to be confident that Online Poker is fair and unbiased.

2. I also believe that the online poker sites (and programs) are flooded with donkeys, or "inexperienced" poker players who do not understand even the basics of proper poker playing. These types of players call hands they utterly should not, either because they do not know any better, or because they simply do not care. Playing in such a haphazard manner robs those of use who do care, and absolutely know better.

Until these issues are fully explored, studied, and ultimately dealt with in a timely and proper fashion, online (and to a somewhat lesser degree, offline) poker will continue to be a very frustrating game for those of use who truly profess to love this crazy game.

Nikolay Nakhaev · Oct 27, 2018

there are unprincipled rooms, there are scammers
fraud in deposits and withdrawals, the use of bots
about one such room almost all the reviews are negative

Distort99 · Oct 27, 2018

i dont beleive that its rigged or anything like that but i do beleive that there are just to many donkeys out there like chipmaster said. it just seems that way because of all the garbage that people go all in on and end up hitting. you just need to remember to play cautious untill you get down into the money where the real poker players are that care about there stacks.

kdawg71 · Oct 27, 2018

Online Poker

Is online poker rigged? That's a tough question. One does get bad beats from time to time. That's poker. One has to remember technically speaking of course, this isn't the lottery. That being said I will give an example. I was dealt A A. Another player was dealt K 9 unsuited. Flop came A K 9. What are the odds of me losing? HMM!!! The odds of him hitting runner runner are 4/45 x 1/44 = 4/1980 = .0020 = .2%. 1 in 500 hands. Likely? No. Again, that being said, it is not the lottery. It will happen no matter how unlikely. When the percentage of this happening well exceeds the odds is when this becomes an issue. By the way, I did win the hand.

I hope I helped shine a little light on this subject.

VMVarga · Oct 27, 2018

Data Data Data

Is online poker rigged? How would you even know?

Say you want to see if the RNG is way off of the statistical norms; you would need a massive number of hand samples to pour over and mine for the data that would indicate that the system is providing statistics that are not within a reasonable standard deviation. Ten thousand hands is not going to be nearly enough. I wouldn't even feel comfortable with 100k hands. At the very least you should be looking at several million, and in order to do that you need to be able to design your own software to search through and categorize all of the hands in some form or fashion. I don't know how to do that, but maybe you do, or know someone who does and will help you.

The other way you might be able to tell is if you can gain access to the servers and the actual RNG programming code and pour over each of the millions of lines of code to see if there are any fishy looking inserts that might indicate someone is intending to edge case or otherwise rig the shuffling system. Unless you are an already great hacker, I assume you won't be spending the enormous amount of time it takes to learn how to break into a poker site's server and pilfer their RNG code so you can tell if they have rigged it or not. If you do have that kind of skill, you are probably doing other more devious things or are getting paid the big bucks to work for some company as IT security. But then again, maybe you have someone who will help you with this.

If you do in fact find substantial evidence that suggests there is actual rigging going on at a poker site, good luck getting your results and your data published in any way that would not get you in legal or other trouble from the site owners (hacking is illegal, and it doesn't matter if you are hacking a company outside the US). And good luck getting anyone online in any poker forum whatsoever to take your research seriously, no matter how convincing or thorough it is.

Unless you live in one of the few states that has legalized and regulated online poker, you are playing in a poker room where you must place all of your trust in regards to honesty and security in the hands of people who operate offshore without a US gaming license or any oversight by or accountability to US authorities.

P.S. For those wondering why you must have a massive sample size: Consider the coin flip example, where you want to verify that it actually is 50/50 odds for heads or tails on any given flip. You flip the coin ten times and get 7 heads and 3 tails. So do you conclude that the actual odds are 70/30 and not 50/50? No. So try flipping the coin 100 times. Maybe you get 42 heads and 58 tails. Then you try it 1000 times and get 487 heads and 513 tails. Keep flipping and at some point you will start to really even out to something much closer to 50/50.

It is the same way with AA vs. KK preflop, or any other hand match up. You run that hand 10 times and you might lose all ten. Or you might win all ten. Only when you run it a very large number of times will you begin to see the same odds that your hand odds calculator provides.

Back to the coin flip; lets say you have decided to flip it 1 million times, and somewhere around 600,000 you encounter a series of flips where it lands on heads 25 times in a row (which, by the way, wouldn't cause the odds to sway dramatically towards heads). That might warrant you to check the coin to make sure it has not been replaced with a coin with heads on both sides. If the coin is fine and still has heads and tails, do you still conclude that the system has been rigged or cheating has occurred? I wouldn't. The 25 flips landing on heads is just an outlier, not an indication of rigging or cheating. That's what variance actually is. So when you get 25 bad beats seemingly all in a row, very close together, or even over several days, you might begin to feel like something is not right with the RNG or you are being cheated, even though you have absolutely no evidence to support that theory. Only when you get 25 bad beats in a row considerably more often than once every X number of hands played--whatever the actual odds of that happening are--can you even begin to theorize that rigging or cheating is taking place.

I hope that helps some people understand that while rigging and cheating are real possibilities in our current online poker environment, it is very difficult to prove, and you cannot just jump to such conclusions simply because you have had a long string of bad beats or because you "feel" like it is happening.

"Data data data! I cannot make bricks without clay." -- Arthur Conan Doyle, The Adventure of the Copper Beeches.

puzzlefish · Oct 27, 2018

VMVarga said:
Is online poker rigged? How would you even know?

Say you want to see if the RNG is way off of the statistical norms; you would need a massive number of hand samples to pour over and mine for the data that would indicate that the system is providing statistics that are not within a reasonable standard deviation. Ten thousand hands is not going to be nearly enough. I wouldn't even feel comfortable with 100k hands. At the very least you should be looking at several million, and in order to do that you need to be able to design your own software to search through and categorize all of the hands in some form or fashion. I don't know how to do that, but maybe you do, or know someone who does and will help you.

The other way you might be able to tell is if you can gain access to the servers and the actual RNG programming code and pour over each of the millions of lines of code to see if there are any fishy looking inserts that might indicate someone is intending to edge case or otherwise rig the shuffling system. Unless you are an already great hacker, I assume you won't be spending the enormous amount of time it takes to learn how to break into a poker site's server and pilfer their RNG code so you can tell if they have rigged it or not. If you do have that kind of skill, you are probably doing other more devious things or are getting paid the big bucks to work for some company as IT security. But then again, maybe you have someone who will help you with this.

If you do in fact find substantial evidence that suggests there is actual rigging going on at a poker site, good luck getting your results and your data published in any way that would not get you in legal or other trouble from the site owners (hacking is illegal, and it doesn't matter if you are hacking a company outside the US). And good luck getting anyone online in any poker forum whatsoever to take your research seriously, no matter how convincing or thorough it is.

Unless you live in one of the few states that has legalized and regulated online poker, you are playing in a poker room where you must place all of your trust in regards to honesty and security in the hands of people who operate offshore without a US gaming license or any oversight by or accountability to US authorities.

P.S. For those wondering why you must have a massive sample size: Consider the coin flip example, where you want to verify that it actually is 50/50 odds for heads or tails on any given flip. You flip the coin ten times and get 7 heads and 3 tails. So do you conclude that the actual odds are 70/30 and not 50/50? No. So try flipping the coin 100 times. Maybe you get 42 heads and 58 tails. Then you try it 1000 times and get 487 heads and 513 tails. Keep flipping and at some point you will start to really even out to something much closer to 50/50.

It is the same way with AA vs. KK preflop, or any other hand match up. You run that hand 10 times and you might lose all ten. Or you might win all ten. Only when you run it a very large number of times will you begin to see the same odds that your hand odds calculator provides.

Back to the coin flip; lets say you have decided to flip it 1 million times, and somewhere around 600,000 you encounter a series of flips where it lands on heads 25 times in a row (which, by the way, wouldn't cause the odds to sway dramatically towards heads). That might warrant you to check the coin to make sure it has not been replaced with a coin with heads on both sides. If the coin is fine and still has heads and tails, do you still conclude that the system has been rigged or cheating has occurred? I wouldn't. The 25 flips landing on heads is just an outlier, not an indication of rigging or cheating. That's what variance actually is. So when you get 25 bad beats seemingly all in a row, very close together, or even over several days, you might begin to feel like something is not right with the RNG or you are being cheated, even though you have absolutely no evidence to support that theory. Only when you get 25 bad beats in a row considerably more often than once every X number of hands played--whatever the actual odds of that happening are--can you even begin to theorize that rigging or cheating is taking place.

I hope that helps some people understand that while rigging and cheating are real possibilities in our current online poker environment, it is very difficult to prove, and you cannot just jump to such conclusions simply because you have had a long string of bad beats or because you "feel" like it is happening.

"Data data data! I cannot make bricks without clay." -- Arthur Conan Doyle, The Adventure of the Copper Beeches.

And this is only using a coin flip as an example. When it comes to the frequency of encountering one type of completed draw versus another.. such as flush vs full house vs quads, and who finds themselves on the good or bad side of variance at any given time, it reaches a new level of complexity that nobody can be bothered to examine. This is exactly why absolutely nothing is being done to prove or disprove that this type of rigging exists.

Luvepoker · Oct 27, 2018

in my last 4 tournaments I lost this way.

I had a set and a the nut flush draw with one card to come. He had a 1 outer to beat me and it hit.

Next game I played I got it all in pre flop with KK and was called by K5s and was drawing dead on the turn to his 4 of a kind.

Flopped the nut full house and lost to a rivered 4 of a kind again.

Last one, small blind I Raise and get called by the big blind. Flop is Akx rainbow. All the remaining chips go into the pot and my 3 kings are behind 3 aces.

So does this show that this is rigged? No is does not. It was just 4 really sick beats in a row. I know some will say this would be the proof they need and the site is rigged. OH wait...........Did I mention this was all live from 3 different casinos. Yes it was. Are the sites rigged? No they are not.

Online poker may no be perfect but its not rigged.

Zateynik111 · Oct 30, 2018

I'm new to this game. And everything is interesting to me.)) You have a good poker experience. may I consult you sometimes?

Pillivey · Oct 31, 2018

Rigged I doubt it

What should be talked about is what hand frequency a random computerized deck shuffler uses . I only question that because I have played for over 10 years online and I do feel that it creates more action hands then let's say ....... A person actually dealing a shuffled deck . As far as all the others who are so quick to call it rigged ..... They probly lost a 60/40 again

puzzlefish · Oct 31, 2018

Pillivey said:
What should be talked about is what hand frequency a random computerized deck shuffler uses . I only question that because I have played for over 10 years online and I do feel that it creates more action hands then let's say ....... A person actually dealing a shuffled deck . As far as all the others who are so quick to call it rigged ..... They probly lost a 60/40 again

I have played on a few poker sites. When you say "it", which RNG are you talking about? Or do you feel that they behave all the same? For example, I personally have found PS and 888 RNGs to be about the same with a lot of action, whereas PP RNG seems to be different and is more prone to dealing boring cards but consistently generating suckouts in a truly hateful manner at times. I have been on both sides of the suckouts and I am sure everybody has. My suspicion with rigging is in patterns of who wins and who loses based on their stack sizes and previous plays.

xpvictor1 · Oct 31, 2018

Why are you still playing? Insanity ?

SouthparkSith said:
So here is the question of the day? If you believe that these online sites are not rigged explain these two situations to me?
1. About six months ago on a site I'll not Name they might get "REVVVED" up? In the course of 6 hours I watched or was part of quad aces being beat by the exact same club royal 5 times in 6 hours? Now granted that's on several different tables but still what are the odds?

2. You ever play jackpot poker on ACR? Pay attention next time you do! With out fail every single time you or an opponent knocks out one of the other players to get heads up. It doesn't matter what you have for cards " usually A/K, A/Q,J of big pockets. For the next three or four hands after you knock someone out if they shove and you call your beat! Most recently my aces we're beat by 9/2 of hearts on a 4/9/Q flop they shove and running hearts costs me $240 on a $40 round? I get it. It happens but every time? I can predict the river card on there 80% of the time if both players are all in on the flop? How is that Random?

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. Why are you even bothering with this if the game itself is insane? Just asking?

Galmedic · Oct 31, 2018

xpvictor1 said:
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. Why are you even bothering with this if the game itself is insane? Just asking?

Why do any of us?

SouthparkSith · Oct 31, 2018

xpvictor1 said:
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. Why are you even bothering with this if the game itself is insane? Just asking?

I haven't played ignition poker since this post or close. Same goes for jackpot poker at ACR

jacksonz89 · Oct 31, 2018

I really do hope not, I have put my life and soul to this game. I have lost abit of dough this year.. hoping for a late charge!!!

John bruce · Nov 2, 2018

Running bad on cars or is rng not running correctly.

Been playing online poker for a few months Pretty steady and have had to endure allot of suck outs. Which brings me to my real problem. The cards that are getting generated are terrible. I play at intertops and can look at the cards i get each tourney and I am ten times more likely to get a deuce or a three off suit with any card. This makes it very difficult to play forcing more bluffs. And playing mediocre hands more often. Not to mention my 61 percent win rate with AA. Which I play very aggressive and normally go all in pre flop. I guess what I'm asking is if online rng is random then I'm either the unluckiest guy in the world or my cards are coming in a manor that handicaps my play. If it wasn't so obvious on my chart I would of thought I'm just to unlucky for online poker.

oneybiggs · Nov 3, 2018

Its not even a question,yes its rigged....mainly against small depositors whose rake ain't worth jack,and for the higher rollers whose rake is gold.and it is or can be rigged against certain players that are not on a corrupt payroll because it wouldn't look right to their muppets n puppets if certain people won.Mark my words...I will succeeded, as I have before...but then they hacked and fried my laptop....twice!!!!!

oneybiggs · Nov 3, 2018

Check this out!!!!!!?
Just had 40 min discon at jokastrs AGAIN for the whole CardsChat tourney while the phone beside it with worse connectivity didn't miss a beat,almost half of that was one long discon,same yesterday or day before....its what they do if I don't deposit and also happens if I practice perfect bankroll management...sorry but jokastars is a cheating factory of thieves...then with 10 secs of connection every few minutes they throw me 88 which just happens to be on double tables with a 10 sec delay between them.I seen a table doubled up before but never with the same cards in play and never with a 10 sec delay between the two tables which are the same table...what a freaking disgrace you are jokastars...time and time again...and I thought I'd seen it all.So of course I'm not going to put a few chips in and play the hand normally to lose it through discon am I...I'm forced to take that one opportunity to gain enough chips to maybe make the money if I get disconed.so I push with my 88 and lose,then watch the replay on the second (same) table 10 seconds later....and not one little flicker of discon since it finished....fraudulent pack of thieving underhanded criminals jokastars,that's what they prove to be time and time again..over and over....nothing but a factory of thievery.

Poker Orifice · Nov 3, 2018

oneybiggs said:
Its not even a question,yes its rigged....mainly against small depositors whose rake ain't worth jack,and for the higher rollers whose rake is gold.and it is or can be rigged against certain players that are not on a corrupt payroll because it wouldn't look right to their muppets n puppets if certain people won.Mark my words...I will succeeded, as I have before...but then they hacked and fried my laptop....twice!!!!!

oneybiggs said:
Check this out!!!!!!?
Just had 40 min discon at jokastrs AGAIN for the whole CardsChat tourney while the phone beside it with worse connectivity didn't miss a beat,almost half of that was one long discon,same yesterday or day before....its what they do if I don't deposit and also happens if I practice perfect bankroll management...sorry but jokastars is a cheating factory of thieves...then with 10 secs of connection every few minutes they throw me 88 which just happens to be on double tables with a 10 sec delay between them.I seen a table doubled up before but never with the same cards in play and never with a 10 sec delay between the two tables which are the same table...what a freaking disgrace you are jokastars...time and time again...and I thought I'd seen it all.So of course I'm not going to put a few chips in and play the hand normally to lose it through discon am I...I'm forced to take that one opportunity to gain enough chips to maybe make the money if I get disconed.so I push with my 88 and lose,then watch the replay on the second (same) table 10 seconds later....and not one little flicker of discon since it finished....fraudulent pack of thieving underhanded criminals jokastars,that's what they prove to be time and time again..over and over....nothing but a factory of thievery.

This ^ is just so ridiculous I don't know what to say but.... when I mentioned to you in another thread that you have lots to look forward to if you choose to learn how to play... well I've changed my mind. Pretty sure it's hopeless for you dude. (seems you're not even interested in learning how to play this game)

Poker Orifice · Nov 3, 2018

xpvictor1 said:
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. Why are you even bothering with this if the game itself is insane? Just asking?

Galmedic said:
Why do any of us?

For many, many different reasons. There's actually a thread here on Cardschat asking members why they play poker with answers ranging from "enjoy playing games", "like the competitive nature of it", "like to win money", "like to challenge themselves to run up a bankroll from zero", "like to practise online to help with their live play", etc. etc. etc.

Personally the main reason I play is because I enjoy the competition, & getting into multi-levels of thinking, game theory, etc. In poker, those who choose to put in more effort learning how to play the game will reap great rewards (errr... .they'll win more often). AND the great thing about poker is "anyone can win on any given day"... which means the bad players will keep on playing with many of them not even realizing how bad they truly are in hopes of getting lucky!

Why do you play?

terryk said:
I love the Rigger threads!! My opinion on this is,,,do you notice a tournament of over 10 000 players only takes a few hours to get down to a couple thousand? Rigged for action my friends!! Nobody can dispute that!! :deal: It has to be that way or the tourneys would last forever.The sites make more money by kicking players out and them rebuying,or buying into another game. Sooooo,,they are not Rigged against you,they just want everybody out!

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!

I can tell you've set up some tournament structures before & know lots about it.

ViserioN_SE · Nov 4, 2018

Chipmaster45 said:
Is Online Poker Rigged????

No, I do not believe that it is rigged, and I have played online for years. I actually believe the reality to be much more complicated and utterly hilarious, if it wasn't so frustrating as well.

I believe the system is actually flawed in two fundamentally hopelessly broken ways.

1. I firmly believe that the random number generator is, for all intents and purposes, completely broken. Whether a result of flawed programming, or worse biased programming (based on certain preset parameters), the result is the same: uneven game play. It is only when a complete overhaul of what passes as an RNG these days is done that we can actually attempt to be confident that Online Poker is fair and unbiased.

2. I also believe that the online poker sites (and programs) are flooded with donkeys, or "inexperienced" poker players who do not understand even the basics of proper poker playing. These types of players call hands they utterly should not, either because they do not know any better, or because they simply do not care. Playing in such a haphazard manner robs those of use who do care, and absolutely know better.

Until these issues are fully explored, studied, and ultimately dealt with in a timely and proper fashion, online (and to a somewhat lesser degree, offline) poker will continue to be a very frustrating game for those of use who truly profess to love this crazy game.

Yeah, there are a lot of donkeys, but it seems that it always hits them. I swear, i have never seen so much bad beats vs donkeys like in pokersatrs. it's unreal

Nikolay Nakhaev · Nov 4, 2018

while some complain, others win[emoji106][emoji106][emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]

ViserioN_SE · Nov 4, 2018

Nikolay Nakhaev said:
while some complain, others win[emoji106][emoji106][emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]

it's hard to win with bad beat over bad beat over bad beat. mainly on river. how do you explain that? can't be only bad playing,right?

Nikolay Nakhaev · Nov 4, 2018

ViserioN_SE said:
it's hard to win with bad beat over bad beat over bad beat. mainly on river. how do you explain that? can't be only bad playing,right?

it means you have to learn to win your opponent before the showdown or even before the flop[emoji110] [emoji110] [emoji110]

djasset · Nov 4, 2018

Great article:

https://medium.com/@dataminepoker/report-bovada-lv-2015-online-poker-in-danger-adf904952c41

oneybiggs · Nov 4, 2018

Breakout Poker Yes they just cheated me with card changing too,hour ago.had QQ 50 left of 700 odd.flop comes 392 I bet 1 caller ,turn comes..Q nice...so I check and double..triple check taking note of any or no straight/flush draws noting if I pair the board I have best full house but I have NO full house I repeat NO FULLHOUSE on turn river comes,I check,double check,triple check OK no problem my QQQ is the nuts 100% so I push caller has 33 awesome....no the pot goes to him....I look at the board and the flop has changed to 393 giving him quads...so many times so many sites and so sick of spelling it all out!!?

So there goes Breakout in the trash can and High stakes can go with them...same platform/software/program whatever.

Poker Orifice said:
This ^ is just so ridiculous I don't know what to say but.... when I mentioned to you in another thread that you have lots to look forward to if you choose to learn how to play... well I've changed my mind. Pretty sure it's hopeless for you dude. (seems you're not even interested in learning how to play this game)

OK,tell me which part of many final tables out of thousands of players are you struggling to cope with,or the blatant undeniable rigging,I thinks its obvious by your words and attitude you know dam straight how truthful I am being and you must have a reason to object so strongly.............right?and you saw the discons yourself,you were at the first table I believe...you play your game I'll play mine...no way would I play yours just to get a poker win lol u know what I mean!!!.

Is Online Poker Rigged?

Chipmaster45

Enthusiast

Nikolay Nakhaev

Legend

Distort99

Enthusiast

kdawg71

Rock Star

VMVarga

Rock Star

puzzlefish

Legend

Luvepoker

Lost in the twilight zone

Zateynik111

Rising Star

Pillivey

Rising Star

puzzlefish

Legend

xpvictor1

Visionary

Galmedic

Visionary

SouthparkSith

Visionary

jacksonz89

Enthusiast

John bruce

Legend

oneybiggs

Legend

oneybiggs

Legend

Poker Orifice

And Still...

Poker Orifice

And Still...

ViserioN_SE

Rising Star

Nikolay Nakhaev

Legend

ViserioN_SE

Rising Star

Nikolay Nakhaev

Legend

djasset

Visionary

oneybiggs

Legend

About CardsChat

Our Community

Our Site