GGPoker accused of banning players for winning - Fedor Holz defends site

Shells · Aug 17, 2020

Recently, there have been accusations stating GGPoker has been banning people due to winning too much? GGPoker has defended themselves and say that is not true! GGPoker ambassador Fedor Holz also, came to the defense of the site.

There is an interesting series of events leading up to the accusations which can be found in the article.

GGPoker Denies Banning Players for Being Big Winners

EmiTou · Aug 17, 2020

It is not strange to me, it is very difficult to heck any manipulation of game houses or programs, although we do know that software is manipulable and can be created at ease, but everything is very difficult to bring to light

Ianmacca99 · Aug 17, 2020

One of the players in question apparently had an account with natural 8 prior to this which was closed then he didn't realize GG was part of the same network so was not eligible to open another account.
This GGs official stance. I don't think it's right to close accounts if no infringement of T&Cs has occurred apart from the players in question game selecting and targeting weaker players which isn't illegal but frowned upon. On reading the article further they list "bum hunting" as a breach. Fedor is an ambassador for GG so it's natural he takes their stance on matters

fundiver199 · Aug 17, 2020

There is a lenghty discussion of the subject in this video starting at 25:00.

As for Tobias Duthweiler it seems pretty clear, that he got banned, because he broke the TOS by signing up on another skin after being banned on one skin already. And I have to agree with DNEG, when he say, that before you deposit 50.000$, you need to do some investigation yourself to make sure, this is going to be ok. Also they did not confiscate his deposit only his winnings, so to me this seems fair enough, and I think, any other poker site would have done the same.

A poker site banning players for bum hunting is to me somewhat controvercial, but its written in the TOS, so if you choose to play cash games on GG Poker, this should not come as a surprice to you. Also DNEG claim in the video, that players kicked out for this offense do not have their funds confiscated. And then its not really any different than being told, you are no longer welcome in your local nightclub because of the way, you behaved. Its not a human right to play poker on a particular site.

Shells · Aug 17, 2020

Ianmacca99 said:
One of the players in question apparently had an account with natural 8 prior to this which was closed then he didn't realize GG was part of the same network so was not eligible to open another account.
This GGs official stance. I don't think it's right to close accounts if no infringement of T&Cs has occurred apart from the players in question game selecting and targeting weaker players which isn't illegal but frowned upon.
Fedor is an ambassador for GG so it's natural he takes their stance on matters

What could you suggest GGPoker (or other poker sites) do to dissuade players from 'bum-hunting'? I took at quick peek at the Terms of Service and did not see anything that particularly applies to the incident in question - just the standard jargon.

Also, remember Tobias Duthweiler did happen to break the Terms of Service even though he was unaware.

Ianmacca99 · Aug 17, 2020

Shells said:
What could you suggest GGPoker (or other poker sites) do to dissuade players from 'bum-hunting'? I took at quick peek at the Terms of Service and did not see anything that particularly applies to the incident in question - just the standard jargon.

Also, remember Tobias Duthweiler did happen to break the Terms of Service even though he was unaware.

I'm not sure to be honest are they playing weak players exclusively? I didn't think it was a breach and haven't read through the terms I just assumed it was as they list this as a reason for banning the players. Yes I knew he had done so by having another account a couple of years ago

Joe · Aug 17, 2020

I think the guy has argument for aggrievement but in our capitalist society it can be very difficult to go up against big companies/groups/corporations.

It can be difficult to know what is owned by who and I'm fairly sure if he hadn't hit that score it's likely he wouldn't have appeared on their 'audit', so when you look at it that way (if he had in fact been playing there for three years undisturbed) it would appear that as long as he continued not winning, GG were fine and dandy, but score 180k....

Different matter!

From that POV you could very easily surmise that he has indeed had his account, and prize money, removed for winning.

Shells · Aug 17, 2020

Tracid said:
I think the guy has argument for aggrievement but in our capitalist society it can be very difficult to go up against big companies/groups/corporations.

It can be difficult to know what is owned by who and I'm fairly sure if he hadn't hit that score it's likely he wouldn't have appeared on their 'audit', so when you look at it that way (if he had in fact been playing there for three years undisturbed) it would appear that as long as he continued not winning, GG were fine and dandy, but score 180k....

Different matter!

From that POV you could very easily surmise that he has indeed had his account, and prize money, removed for winning.

I'm listening to the YouTube video fundiver put up and in the midst of the discussion amongst the panel. (Terrence Chan and DNegs are part of it) Interesting points of view.

I tend to believe Tobias could have signed up innocently but now that he has been found out, what should GGPoker do? There is no way of really knowing how innocent the action was.

So, this brings me to my next question - has there been others who have claimed their accounts have been closed due to winning too much?

AllenKll · Aug 17, 2020

I always had a bad feeling about GG. Now, it seems, that feeling was proven right.

Regardless of the reason for banning him, or re-banning him. He legit won money, and he should be paid his money.

Not paying out is basically GG saying, "Oh, you know what? You didn't actually earn that money, because our site is rigged and we gave it to you. So, now we're taking it back."

As for "bum hunting?" That's what this game is all about! Find the player weaker than you, and take their money. That's what poker has ALWAYS been about.

StackingZChipz209 · Aug 17, 2020

$$$talks GGpoker banned playa playa

I think money back to the affected player was the choice

MattRyder · Aug 17, 2020

"Bum hunting"? I learn new phrases here everyday.

I thought table selection was a common and legitimate strategy. If I leave a table because I'm being systematically outplayed is that the same thing? Should I be banned for choosing not to lose more to a Pro?

As far as I'm concerned, as long as you're not using live software to create an advantage, it's fair game.

ramdon p358 · Aug 17, 2020

I think it is a bad decision. If a player starts from the lowest levels and manages to become a winner at the highest levels, it would be useless if in the future this player will be banned

BigCountryAA · Aug 17, 2020

I'd like to know why they wait until someone cashes to ban them for TOS violations. Why not before then? Seems like a nice way to avoid paying out big wins. Let violators roam free taking others money...then ban them and voila GG gets it back.

Shells · Aug 17, 2020

BigCountryAA said:
I'd like to know why they wait until someone cashes to ban them for TOS violations. Why not before then? Seems like a nice way to avoid paying out big wins. Let violators roam free taking others money...then ban them and voila GG gets it back.

GGpoker did return the initial deposit to Tobias. I do wonder if there were other complaints much the same as Tobias' before or even after this issue blew up.

I also wonder wonder what kind of IP Detection or security implementation they may be running...maybe this will encourage a better security system? whatever that may be.

KristaK · Aug 17, 2020

Shells said:
Recently, there have been accusations stating GGPoker has been banning people due to winning too much?

hi hi shells!!! :ciao:
i find this very hard believe
gg poker fun place play...
if this factual i have no worries at all - i never win lol

fundiver199 · Aug 17, 2020

BigCountryAA said:
I'd like to know why they wait until someone cashes to ban them for TOS violations. Why not before then? Seems like a nice way to avoid paying out big wins. Let violators roam free taking others money...then ban them and voila GG gets it back.

It does not look good on GG, that it took them 18 month to discover the violation, especially since the guy signed up on the new skin using his real name and the same email adress. But that being said it is probably very common, that a big win and request for a big withdrawal is, what trigger an investigation. And still the player also has a responsibility to make sure, he is not signing up on another skin after being banned from a network. Especially before depositing serious money like 50.000$. And of course anyone getting caught doing this will always claim, they did not know

GGthiagoXD · Aug 17, 2020

Shells said:
Recently, there have been accusations stating GGPoker has been banning people due to winning too much? GGPoker has defended themselves and say that is not true! GGPoker ambassador Fedor Holz also, came to the defense of the site.

There is an interesting series of events leading up to the accusations which can be found in the article.

GGPoker Denies Banning Players for Being Big Winners

Big winners even have the ability to arouse the will of the competition to expel them. I want to be one of those big Shells winners. !!

fundiver199 · Aug 17, 2020

AllenKll said:
As for "bum hunting?" That's what this game is all about! Find the player weaker than you, and take their money. That's what poker has ALWAYS been about.

To some extend yes. But the issue with online poker is, that it makes bum hunting so painfully obvious. Just imagine, that you play live in a casino, and when you take a toilet break, right away everyone else also goes on break. Or everyone wants to get the seat to your left. Then you would probably not want to come back and play in that game again. And this is pretty much, how online cash games have become, especially at the higher limits.

So I am not saying, that GGs policy is great, but they are addressing, what most industry professionals have realised as a huge problem for many years already. Why do you think, Stars have banned seating scripts, some sites have moved to anonymous tables etc. Its all part of an attempt to reduce the amount of bum-hunting to create a more enjoyable environment for net depositing customers.

Severo junior · Aug 17, 2020

accept the terms

When you register with a gambling website, you have to accept the terms that they do. So if you accept the terms and do something that is against those terms, it is only fair that the site decides what to do, even if the players think it is wrong. If you do not agree with the rules of the site, do not play.
If you can deceive the site, great, but assume the consequences, simple as that

Alucard · Aug 18, 2020

Just check on 2+2 how many players were banned through all in asia network prior to gg getting as big as pokerstars.
It's a fun site to play on with decent promos & softer pool but I'd not keep most of my money there because they'd just ban you for just being a winning player as it has happened before. Reson - Just because they can
It's also a bit funny cause some of their affiliated streamers also do a lot of bumhunting on 200NL-1kNL.
Also as I know Fedor said he'd look into the matter more

fundiver199 · Aug 18, 2020

Alucard said:
It's a fun site to play on with decent promos & softer pool but I'd not keep most of my money there because they'd just ban you for just being a winning player as it has happened before. Reson - Just because they can

As soon as you get into mid or high stakes, it is definitely a good idea to keep the majority of your bankroll away from the poker sites. Regardless which sites we play on, there is always a risk, something goes wrong. The site goes busto, there is a new "black friday", or we come under investigation, even though we did not intentionally break the TOS. Depositing if needed typically takes less than a minute, so there is really no need to keep a ton of money stacked away on poker sites.

fundiver199 · Aug 18, 2020

Severo junior said:
When you register with a gambling website, you have to accept the terms that they do. So if you accept the terms and do something that is against those terms, it is only fair that the site decides what to do, even if the players think it is wrong.

The issue, which I have with the TOS of GG Poker is, that it is difficult to define, what "predatory behaviour" is, and when the TOS say, its up to them to decide, it creates a situation, which is basically not fair to the players. They can just say "you did bum-hunting, so we will confiscate your money" without providing any sort of evidence at all. Maybe they dont actually do that, but you put an awfull lot of trust in them by agreeing to this kind of TOS.

Severo junior said:
If you do not agree with the rules of the site, do not play.

Agree and personally I would think twice, before I started to play cash games on GG Poker under the current TOS.

DMAlv7 · Aug 18, 2020

BigCountryAA said:
I'd like to know why they wait until someone cashes to ban them for TOS violations. Why not before then? Seems like a nice way to avoid paying out big wins. Let violators roam free taking others money...then ban them and voila GG gets it back.

It would be interesting to know if the algorithm would have banned him if he had lost $20,000 of the $50,000.. Seems like it took a long time to work out (even after he apparently supplied correct ID's) that he was banned. Its a bit wrong if they let it go until he won a decent amount..

Shells · Aug 18, 2020

DMAlv7 said:
It would be interesting to know if the algorithm would have banned him if he had lost $20,000 of the $50,000.. Seems like it took a long time to work out (even after he apparently supplied correct ID's) that he was banned. Its a bit wrong if they let it go until he won a decent amount..

Just spitballing here...

Maybe their security system is triggered by larger wins? or requests for withdrawals?

BigCountryAA · Aug 18, 2020

Shells said:
Just spitballing here...

Maybe their security system is triggered by larger wins? or requests for withdrawals?

I feel like you're right.

GGPoker accused of banning players for winning - Fedor Holz defends site

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