Transgenders in Women/Girls Sports ?

jfitzg414 · Jul 14, 2018

This is a tough question but a valid concern. If you played against a doped athlete you would feel cheated if they won but strictly they are not doping. Too class them as a separate group is borderline discrimination. Inn today's world I think there are ways to handicap men women sports especially women's to make the playing field fair

Bev · Jul 14, 2018

jfitzg414 said:
This is a tough question but a valid concern. If you played against a doped athlete you would feel cheated if they won but strictly they are not doping. Too class them as a separate group is borderline discrimination. Inn today's world I think there are ways to handicap men women sports especially women's to make the playing field fair

Excellent idea , if they had to start several hundred feet/metres etc. behind the girls their own age ... that would be a way to make the race more fair.
There are handicaps in other sports where women and men compete together.

jfitzg414 · Jul 14, 2018

icnbe56 said:
Excellent idea , if they had to start several hundred feet/metres etc. behind the girls their own age ... that would be a way to make the race more fair.
There are handicaps in other sports where women and men compete together.

Yes that was my thought also, handicapping on a sport by sport basis should even the field and all participants would know the what they were facing. I think we should be able to figure this out without sectioning people. I would hate to see this decided by the courts or end violent but I do believe they should be able to compete in their chosen transgender sport

Bev · Jul 14, 2018

jfitzg414 said:
Yes that was my thought also, handicapping on a sport by sport basis should even the field and all participants would know the what they were facing. I think we should be able to figure this out without sectioning people. I would hate to see this decided by the courts or end violent but I do believe they should be able to compete in their chosen transgender sport

Unfortunately the parents of these girls are not thinking this way - they have a petition going to stop the transgenders from competing in their girls division.

Becky Eubanks · Jul 14, 2018

I don't think they should compete against the girls because of the advantage that
they have in physical competitions but would be great on the quiz bowl team or
art competition or music or anything that is not physical.

I understand the mothers of the girls being upset about this because they may be
competing to try for college scholarships and feel that they were cheated.

jfitzg414 · Jul 14, 2018

That is too bad has anyone proposed handicapping? like golf or other sports. If the parents are adamant then I think once again it is going to bubble to the court at the very least. This will probably happen after some violence

jfitzg414 · Jul 14, 2018

Becky do you feel that you could not level the playing field with a handicap structure it is done in many sports and works fine. This would allow fair competition for scholarships if all participants knew the handicap structure or appealed and amended the handicap so all had a voice.

Bev · Jul 14, 2018

Becky Eubanks said:
I don't think they should compete against the girls because of the advantage that
they have in physical competitions but would be great on the quiz bowl team or
art competition or music or anything that is not physical.

I understand the mothers of the girls being upset about this because they may be
competing to try for college scholarships and feel that they were cheated.

That's pretty much how the parents feel , as their girls Are being beat by the transgenders - so if the petition works , then the transgenders won't be allowed ... but maybe in the track and field events they could use a handicap .

Becky Eubanks · Jul 15, 2018

If a handicap system could be worked out to the satisfaction of all parties involved
I would be ok with it.

Bev · Jul 15, 2018

Becky Eubanks said:
If a handicap system could be worked out to the satisfaction of all parties involved
I would be ok with it.

Quite frankly - they should of thought of that before they even let them into competition with the girls.

PaxMundi · Jul 15, 2018

If transgenders have an unfair advantage then it's unfair. Which is possible as obviously men do have different physiology to women.Other wise from a gender point of view i'm completely ok with it.

I'm not ok with unfair competition though whether that be from a gender advantage or drug advantage such as steroid use.Lot's of research needs to be done on the subject obviously,but has sport ever been a level playing field ?.Maybe it will just result in athletes reaching a higher standard,who knows.

It does seem to be one way though doesn't it ? because it's transgender men.Because if a transgender women beats male athletes i couldn't see there being any excuses to be fair.

Bev · Jul 15, 2018

MettaGame said:
If transgenders have an unfair advantage then it's unfair. Which is possible as obviously men do have different physiology to women.Other wise from a gender point of view i'm completely ok with it.

I'm not ok with unfair competition though whether that be from a gender advantage or drug advantage such as steroid use.Lot's of research needs to be done on the subject obviously,but has sport ever been a level playing field ?.Maybe it will just result in athletes reaching a higher standard,who knows.

It does seem to be one way though doesn't it ? because it's transgender men.Because if a transgender women beats male athletes i couldn't see there being any excuses to be fair.

Well, that is what these parents are ticked off about is the transgenders competing in the track and field against girls - these are young teens , so it is unfair ... as far as I can tell. I feel for these girls and the parents are the ones that now have the battle to make it fair.
so,either have a separate division or give them handicaps. Either way - if they keep up as is - it is unfair.

step055 · Jul 15, 2018

Of course not
In fact they are men and are stronger physically. They shouldn’t take part in girl’s sports to my mind

Shahzade · Jul 16, 2018

No, they shouldn't be allowed to compete with them. I really agree with those that say that transgenders have an unfair advantage over other girls/women. An unfair advantage is an unfair advantage. This is a touchy topic for sure.

Bev · Jul 16, 2018

step055 said:
Of course not
In fact they are men and are stronger physically. They shouldn’t take part in girl’s sports to my mind

I agree to - they would need handicaps - kinda like in golf .

Shahzade said:
No, they shouldn't be allowed to compete with them. I really agree with those that say that transgenders have an unfair advantage over other girls/women. An unfair advantage is an unfair advantage. This is a touchy topic for sure.

Yep - it is what the parents are fighting for now.
So far we have a lot of votes for not playing in the girls division and I am tending that way to.

Bev · Jul 18, 2018

jfitzg414 said:
That is too bad has anyone proposed handicapping? like golf or other sports. If the parents are adamant then I think once again it is going to bubble to the court at the very least. This will probably happen after some violence

Hopefully no violence - just come to a mutual fair set of rules - if not handicaps , then a separate division .
They have a separate decision of all sports for the handicapped ( disabled ) |Even have their own Paralympic Games !

jfitzg414 · Jul 18, 2018

They did not think of handicapping so now we are where we are. You will not be able to handicap all sports but the boards will have to figure that on a 1 by 1 basis. I have granddaughters in college women softball and do not know how you handicap that. Track and Field and golf is obvious but some sports I do not see how to handicap.

cbrig6 · Jul 18, 2018

There is certainly a gender advantage for strength you would think. Even at a kids competition level they still play to win and i feel they should be able to play but just give them a separate locker room and they play on the sex they were born toos team.

Bev · Jul 18, 2018

jfitzg414 said:
They did not think of handicapping so now we are where we are. You will not be able to handicap all sports but the boards will have to figure that on a 1 by 1 basis. I have granddaughters in college women softball and do not know how you handicap that. Track and Field and golf is obvious but some sports I do not see how to handicap.

So, every sport is going to have to be judged/decided on as it happens /needed then if they are going to keep allowing transgenders to play in girls/women's sports.

cbrig6 said:
There is certainly a gender advantage for strength you would think. Even at a kids competition level they still play to win and i feel they should be able to play but just give them a separate locker room and they play on the sex they were born toos team.

LOL separate locker room ? - this is happening in the USA - you knw where they are allowing transgenders to use the ladies rooms - even if they aren't totally transitioned !

So, play - compete yes - but not against girls !

cbrig6 · Jul 20, 2018

wow thats pretty progressive for us in the states. and i could agree with that let them compete just not against girls but i feel like some activist group would certainly not love those statements haha

Bev · Jul 20, 2018

cbrig6 said:
wow thats pretty progressive for us in the states. and i could agree with that let them compete just not against girls but i feel like some activist group would certainly not love those statements haha

You got that right , and the parents of the girls in this particular situation are ticked ! I can imagine what they are saying !!!

VisionNutz · Aug 13, 2018

There are two ethical dilemmas with the topic of Trans competing in sports in the opposite gender class than they were initially born as.

The first dilemma is at a level of science in relation to hormones, chemical "on-goings" in the body which can be further researched as to why the male has a specific hormonal advantage in consideration with aggression and physicality - dating back to primitive eras of survival and genetics. One of these hormones is called Testosterone. It is a natural compound and not supplemented and considered cheating if indeed it is supplemented. Now one can argue that the use of Estrogen as a hormonal balancing implementation can disregard this initial dilemma. Yes, but then this is still a form of supplementation (similar to growth hormone & steroids) and cannot always be monitored so accurately.

The second dilemma which is the contradiction to the first dilemma, is a moral dilemma. This rarely has to be discussed further. On the one hand the argument is they are kids let them play. But like in poker where one loses/wins the opposite occurs to the opponent. You win I lose. or I win and you lose. And as is the case with any game where a winner is established we want to ensure that on a moral level everything is ship shape and fair. It becomes quite the predicament because schools and meets want to be as INCLUSIVE as possible without "screwing over the rest of the competition" for the sake of having an "open minded image".

So its a vicious debate that goes in circles as with any other ethical topic. This only stimulates loop discussions that doesn't actually find a solution in the end and no matter what someone will be pleased and someone will be upset.

The only other option is for there to be a new category in events (especially when this becomes an issue at professional levels where monetary gain is now in question) and that category can be named "gender fluid" race class group. Given its trajectory this will indeed bring numbers in future iterations.

Similar to the Special Olympics where each competitior shares a form of disability (by no means am I comparing trans to disabled people for the record) but the idea is the same. The trans are "gender fluid" and sign a waiver accepting this premise prior to any form of competition.

My opinion is to find a solution where gender fluid athletes can have their own class/category of competition as this can generate the most utility for the collective. Again, you will always have those fanatics who are crazy against the thought of Trans/Gender Fluid people - and they will just harass them on youtube and other forms of public exposure. For those, I think karma will be visiting them in some form sooner than later. Let people be what they want and lets work together to find a solution to provide utility to the collective. We are all humans in the end. And life needs to be respected.

anyway thats my two cents would love to hear your thoughts about this
cheers!

Bev · Aug 13, 2018

VisionNutz said:
There are two ethical dilemmas with the topic of Trans competing in sports in the opposite gender class than they were initially born as.

The first dilemma is at a level of science in relation to hormones, chemical "on-goings" in the body which can be further researched as to why the male has a specific hormonal advantage in consideration with aggression and physicality - dating back to primitive eras of survival and genetics. One of these hormones is called Testosterone. It is a natural compound and not supplemented and considered cheating if indeed it is supplemented. Now one can argue that the use of Estrogen as a hormonal balancing implementation can disregard this initial dilemma. Yes, but then this is still a form of supplementation (similar to growth hormone & steroids) and cannot always be monitored so accurately.

Right , to me it doesn't matter what drugs they take - the boys will be able to run faster then girls

The second dilemma which is the contradiction to the first dilemma, is a moral dilemma. This rarely has to be discussed further. On the one hand the argument is they are kids let them play. But like in poker where one loses/wins the opposite occurs to the opponent. You win I lose. or I win and you lose. And as is the case with any game where a winner is established we want to ensure that on a moral level everything is ship shape and fair. It becomes quite the predicament because schools and meets want to be as INCLUSIVE as possible without "screwing over the rest of the competition" for the sake of having an "open minded image".

I don't think anyone is going to be open minded when it comes to this

So its a vicious debate that goes in circles as with any other ethical topic. This only stimulates loop discussions that doesn't actually find a solution in the end and no matter what someone will be pleased and someone will be upset.

The only other option is for there to be a new category in events (especially when this becomes an issue at professional levels where monetary gain is now in question) and that category can be named "gender fluid" race class group. Given its trajectory this will indeed bring numbers in future iterations.

Similar to the Special Olympics where each competitior shares a form of disability (by no means am I comparing trans to disabled people for the record) but the idea is the same. The trans are "gender fluid" and sign a waiver accepting this premise prior to any form of competition.
Exactly , they will have to do this , and it should settle it for the girls parents , and it will definitely make the trans genders feel special
My opinion is to find a solution where gender fluid athletes can have their own class/category of competition as this can generate the most utility for the collective. Again, you will always have those fanatics who are crazy against the thought of Trans/Gender Fluid people - and they will just harass them on youtube and other forms of public exposure. For those, I think karma will be visiting them in some form sooner than later. Let people be what they want and lets work together to find a solution to provide utility to the collective. We are all humans in the end. And life needs to be respected.

anyway thats my two cents would love to hear your thoughts about this
cheers!

We pretty much have the same opinion

VisionNutz · Aug 13, 2018

icnbe56 said:
We pretty much have the same opinion

Awesome! I gave this topic some further thought and came up with another solution in the shower where I often do my best thinking.

arty:

There can easily be an option (in schools as a trial) for a CO-ED category of racing. The same parameters apply in a sense that every athlete should be CLEARLY told what is involved in this category. Females, males and gender fluids would have equal opportunity in this grouping. A waiver could be signed or something to acknowledge that in this category all genders, and gender fluid persons are accepted and permitted to compete here.

This actually does two things, it solves the issue of unfair "genetic" advantage AND it also does not "segregate" the gender fluid/trans people any further than they already are... This way they can compete in the same group as their peers. :reddy:

VisionNutz · Aug 13, 2018

icnbe56 said:
You got that right , and the parents of the girls in this particular situation are ticked ! I can imagine what they are saying !!!

As for assigning locker rooms - this is a riddle I have no solution for yet, perhaps again assigning a "gender fluid" locker room??

It is very difficult to accommodate and I think it would need some serious discussion and thought on "the locker room" type issues as this can certainly put anyone in an unnecessarily awkward position.

To prevent any sexual harassment incidents as well because it only takes ONE of these incidents to cause an outrageous debacle between parents and their kids and the schools itself.

You could be the most open minded gal or guy , but I mean for lack of better description here, seeing someone else's gizmo is awkward.

Transgenders in Women/Girls Sports ?

Should Transgenders Compete With Girls/Women in Sports ?

Yes - it's OK for transgenders to compete with girls/women

No - you don't think they should compete with girls/women

Don't Care either Way

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