Tough but pretty common spot

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crimsonblur

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I'm at 13 big blinds in 77th out of 154th place, top 126 places pay, I could coast on this and cash for sure.

Folds to me in the HJ+2 or 3 I can't remember now lol with AK.

I shove and get called by QQ and don't hit an ace or king here. Would any of you play this hand differently?
 
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I doubt you're folding to a mincash with 13bb here. Yeah I am shoving here all day.
 
Agreed with above poster, I'm for sure shoving. Disclaimer, I admittedly play with little regard for a min cash when playing online. I always would rather take more risks around that time and give myself a greater chance to get those top-heavy payouts. I think most people are approaching that similarly though. If you have 20 BB, or there are 134 left instead of 154...you might get a different answer from some people I'm playing aggressively with those hands.
 
I'm curious. With such a big bet? Were you hoping to get called or hoping to steal the blinds? If you were looking for a call, you had to know you were going to probably end up a small dog if somebody did call.

I see I'm in the minority so far but to me this bet gets rid of all the hands you want to play against and makes the decision easy on the hands you don't want to call.

If the idea was to pick up the blinds or if you've been out-played/out-flopped on the rest of the streets, I get the play. Otherwise I'm a bit stumped.
 
Tough Spot

Personally, I don't really see any way around shoving unless you feel like you cannot make significant cash increases even with the extra BBs. AK is going to have a good shot against anything that is not AA/KK. Since tournaments have payouts rising significantly based on where you finish it just makes sense to give yourself a shot at more.
 
I have AK and am 13 BB, the action is on me.
I will raise the bet to 3BB and see if its a call or reraise.
If called, will go all in on flop and be busted.
If reraised preflop than maybe, maybe, maybe fold...
 
Darth_Moola said:
Personally, I don't really see any way around shoving unless you feel like you cannot make significant cash increases even with the extra BBs. AK is going to have a good shot against anything that is not AA/KK. Since tournaments have payouts rising significantly based on where you finish it just makes sense to give yourself a shot at more.
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But he had 13 bb. If he had 4 or less it's an automatic shove, but with 13 you have some play left. What's wrong with a 3-4bb open?

It just seems unwise to price all the hands you dominate out and price in all the hands that you're behind to. Your never getting rid of queens preflop, but if he had left himself 9bb behind and the board came wet there's a chance you could buy it. I realize that QQ would probably beat you in the pot with an overpair on a dry board, sure. But even then you would have had a chance to make a hero fold and still have 9bb left.

I wonder what GTO-folks would say.
 
A few days ago, I had KK three times in different tourneys that day. I got beat by AK all three times. Two of those times it knocked me out of the tournament not to far from the bubble.
With only 13 BB I think the only way to play AK is all in. You wont win every time but when you do you wont have to coast to a min cash, youll have chips to play. Ive been reading a lot of Jonathan Littles articles and books. He always advises to go for a win not a min cash.
 
This is just a cooler, pretty common. You should be playing for the win, the biggest online winners cash less but win more often.
 
That's a standard shove to me. You're basically flipping AK against Queens. Not much you can do there when you bust out.
 
soon the bank would have played everything, the percentage is good, plus a few blinds .. yes it turns out slightly aggressive, well, better so ..
 
WiredKs said:
I'm curious. With such a big bet? Were you hoping to get called or hoping to steal the blinds? If you were looking for a call, you had to know you were going to probably end up a small dog if somebody did call.

I see I'm in the minority so far but to me this bet gets rid of all the hands you want to play against and makes the decision easy on the hands you don't want to call.

If the idea was to pick up the blinds or if you've been out-played/out-flopped on the rest of the streets, I get the play. Otherwise I'm a bit stumped.
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WiredKs said:
But he had 13 bb. If he had 4 or less it's an automatic shove, but with 13 you have some play left. What's wrong with a 3-4bb open?

It just seems unwise to price all the hands you dominate out and price in all the hands that you're behind to. Your never getting rid of queens preflop, but if he had left himself 9bb behind and the board came wet there's a chance you could buy it. I realize that QQ would probably beat you in the pot with an overpair on a dry board, sure. But even then you would have had a chance to make a hero fold and still have 9bb left.

I wonder what GTO-folks would say.
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Part of why AK is such a strong hand is because it has blockers to AA and KK which are the only hands we're afraid of. Yes it's still possibe that we run into them here, but the chances are diminished because we hold one of each leaving only 3 left in the deck. What do you think calls a 13bb shove? Something like 77+, ATs+, AJos+, maybe some KQ and KJ? Yes we are flipping vs a lot of that range, but the rest of the hands in that range we have completely crushed and we have blockers to the only 2 hands that dominate us.


I would be ok with 3-4bb open if the intention was to shove ANY flop to fold out the smaller pairs, but even then you're only getting called by the hands that beat you and only have 2 more cards to come to make your hand. There is no hero folds at this stage, at 13bb if you put anything in the middle you aren't forced to then it should be your entire stack to maximize fold equity.
 
It does not strike me as 13 BB will be enough for a min cash here. That is the correct shove a large portion of the time even if you run into QQ or less you still have 43% or more (against AQs etc.) Unfortunately AK is just a very dominate ace high...it still plays better against most ranges than a pair JJ or below.
 
playinggameswithu said:
It does not strike me as 13 BB will be enough for a min cash here. That is the correct shove a large portion of the time even if you run into QQ or less you still have 43% or more (against AQs etc.) Unfortunately AK is just a very dominate ace high...it still plays better against most ranges than a pair JJ or below.
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Did you see where I said I was in 77th out of 150ish players left, there were at least 30 players with 4 BBs and less so I could have easily cashed with like 10 BBs left just folding every hand.
 
WiredKs said:
But he had 13 bb. If he had 4 or less it's an automatic shove, but with 13 you have some play left. What's wrong with a 3-4bb open?

It just seems unwise to price all the hands you dominate out and price in all the hands that you're behind to. Your never getting rid of queens preflop, but if he had left himself 9bb behind and the board came wet there's a chance you could buy it. I realize that QQ would probably beat you in the pot with an overpair on a dry board, sure. But even then you would have had a chance to make a hero fold and still have 9bb left.

I wonder what GTO-folks would say.
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I don't think there's much of an argument for opening with less than 15 big blinds so I would never be doing that in this spot, only shove or fold.
 
tmfnsanders said:
Part of why AK is such a strong hand is because it has blockers to AA and KK which are the only hands we're afraid of. Yes it's still possibe that we run into them here, but the chances are diminished because we hold one of each leaving only 3 left in the deck. What do you think calls a 13bb shove? Something like 77+, ATs+, AJos+, maybe some KQ and KJ? Yes we are flipping vs a lot of that range, but the rest of the hands in that range we have completely crushed and we have blockers to the only 2 hands that dominate us.


I would be ok with 3-4bb open if the intention was to shove ANY flop to fold out the smaller pairs, but even then you're only getting called by the hands that beat you and only have 2 more cards to come to make your hand. There is no hero folds at this stage, at 13bb if you put anything in the middle you aren't forced to then it should be your entire stack to maximize fold equity.
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Today I learned that I play AK like a nit. 😛

I just hate the idea of playing great poker for 3 hours to let luck decide by pushing with a flip. I either undervalue AK or overvalue my postflop play.

You guys are making me think about my game anyway. Thanks!
 
WiredKs said:
But he had 13 bb. If he had 4 or less it's an automatic shove, but with 13 you have some play left. What's wrong with a 3-4bb open?

It just seems unwise to price all the hands you dominate out and price in all the hands that you're behind to. Your never getting rid of queens preflop, but if he had left himself 9bb behind and the board came wet there's a chance you could buy it. I realize that QQ would probably beat you in the pot with an overpair on a dry board, sure. But even then you would have had a chance to make a hero fold and still have 9bb left.

I wonder what GTO-folks would say.
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I would rather open normally, but in my personal experience people will just automatically 3Bet with anything remotely decent, so you can't get a read on them anyway. If you have tight players behind, then I would absolutely say your strategy is best. I guess it may just come to my experience as to why I usually play this way.
 
read your OP, scrolled thru the rest so IDK what there. Forget the bubble- is BS.Get the cash....... At the same time.. you played it perfect with 13 bigs. QQ unlikely, and even when they have it..... No go this time. But your decision, on that hand, IMO. correct.
 
Darth_Moola said:
I would rather open normally, but in my personal experience people will just automatically 3Bet with anything remotely decent, so you can't get a read on them anyway. If you have tight players behind, then I would absolutely say your strategy is best. I guess it may just come to my experience as to why I usually play this way.
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in my experience..... i love playing your type of player 🙂 and what is a normal open with AK and 13 bigs? In your experience? lol.... sorry i cant help it 🙂
 
WiredKs said:
Today I learned that I play AK like a nit. 😛

I just hate the idea of playing great poker for 3 hours to let luck decide by pushing with a flip. I either undervalue AK or overvalue my postflop play.

You guys are making me think about my game anyway. Thanks!
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that late with 13 bigs.... there's little to none....post flop play. AK, all FN day. Cause besides only 13BB.....antes. and hello!!!!! AK. Could do worse. I mean really. Why is this a topic? Is the bubble BS, NO NO NO! FN NO! BUT...... AK, 13bigs. You gonna get tricky with how many BB behind? NO! wtf. get the fold equity now... or make em hit or hold. And think about dinner next Wednesday,,,,more than this. andif you worry....but i've been playing 3 hours! shit. play 12, 24, 36 etc.... and KNOW AK 13BBshove. Mic drop
 
when I play in any tournament to me there are three stages.
1. Make the money
2.Make the final table
3. Win the tournament

You can not accomplish 2 and three without fulfilling number 1. I am more than happy with a min cash if that means folding close to the money with a slight edge.🙂
 
smknginmaine said:
that late with 13 bigs.... there's little to none....post flop play. AK, all FN day. Cause besides only 13BB.....antes. and hello!!!!! AK. Could do worse. I mean really. Why is this a topic? Is the bubble BS, NO NO NO! FN NO! BUT...... AK, 13bigs. You gonna get tricky with how many BB behind? NO! wtf. get the fold equity now... or make em hit or hold. And think about dinner next Wednesday,,,,more than this. andif you worry....but i've been playing 3 hours! shit. play 12, 24, 36 etc.... and KNOW AK 13BBshove. Mic drop
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This may be a good example of the different approaches to the game. In its extremes it's Gambler vs. Grinder. Both tactics are valid and personalities will likely dictate which way you go.

It's a different focus. One wants to maximize gains and can tolerate variance and the other looks to minimize losses and is variance adverse.

For me, I'm never going to tell myself "you got it in good, what are you going to do? That's poker." I'm going to evaluate my play and see if there was a better line I could have taken or a different bet amount that might have made the difference and things like that. It makes the game more frustrating because it's not a solved game and many times the post game evaluation is pointless and just an exercise in kicking yourself in the face because, well..., sometimes it's just "that's poker".
 
WiredKs said:
This may be a good example of the different approaches to the game. In its extremes it's Gambler vs. Grinder. Both tactics are valid and personalities will likely dictate which way you go.

It's a different focus. One wants to maximize gains and can tolerate variance and the other looks to minimize losses and is variance adverse.

For me, I'm never going to tell myself "you got it in good, what are you going to do? That's poker." I'm going to evaluate my play and see if there was a better line I could have taken or a different bet amount that might have made the difference and things like that. It makes the game more frustrating because it's not a solved game and many times the post game evaluation is pointless and just an exercise in kicking yourself in the face because, well..., sometimes it's just "that's poker".
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Valid points. Eloquently put. In THE SPOT DESCRIBED.....you don't jam the AK? Write a poem. You'll get further. Just saying.....
 
WiredKs said:
This may be a good example of the different approaches to the game. In its extremes it's Gambler vs. Grinder. Both tactics are valid and personalities will likely dictate which way you go.

It's a different focus. One wants to maximize gains and can tolerate variance and the other looks to minimize losses and is variance adverse.
Click to expand...


dude.... no offense. you're saying you like oranges but hate citrus???
 
Good decision

crimsonblur said:
I'm at 13 big blinds in 77th out of 154th place, top 126 places pay, I could coast on this and cash for sure.

Folds to me in the HJ+2 or 3 I can't remember now lol with AK.

I shove and get called by QQ and don't hit an ace or king here. Would any of you play this hand


There is a lot of decision making here... personally I shove and fold almost equally depending on who is left to act
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