MicroCrushers Thread!!!!!

[RamdeeBen]

Still not sure why a few people are saying raise our set vs this player?

Duggs; agreed about shoving,I wondered if I should just shove the river but I felt he had a fair few over pairs in this spot which I don't want him folding and of course some sets, given that I thought I can get some value from over pairs which might not call a shove but at the same time; I wanted to try induce some shove from those hands.

Yoshii - he's a 13/10 I think I said or something like that. A tight TAG basically.I don't understand why you say shove or check back the river though? I considered shoving because I felt he has a lot of overpairs but and wanted to bet for value vs those hands which might not actually call a shove.



Of course when he does shove, I call expect to see the occasional 99 but not enough to make it a -EV ( I don' think vs his whole range anyway?) likely see worse sets and some over pairs at times.

I also appreciate when people say he nearly has 99 a lot here when he takes this line, because he is nitty but at the time I had my plan of value betting pretty much all river cards and also was going to call his shoves just based on his whole range I think we're going to be good a lot. Maybe I'm not, I dunno - but that was my plan

 

[duggs]

give me reasons why raising turn > raising flop and ill try refute them.

we want to either b/f really small or just jam (if we have to bet). b/c is a worse option than jam if you dont expect to induce, which we shouldnt given this isnt a texture under sets and overpairs will jam on with any real frequency.

 

[ScottishMatt]

If villain had a set he was getting it in OTT. You can't induce from a nit in a spot like this, it simply isn't gonna happen. We can't check because we are miles ahead of his range and if he can hero the turn with an overpair then he can hero the river too. Ship it and if he turns over pocket 9s then we profit over the long term anyway.

 

[RamdeeBen]

give me reasons why raising turn > raising flop and ill try refute them.

Flop is too dry, when you get raised on these sort of boards in zoom, it usually means one thing - sets. Our raising range on the turn has also widen a lot more on the turn, if he has a set on flop/turn he'll want to get it in on the turn - if he has over pairs he might just shove over rather than seeing the river.

What's your reason for wanting to raise the flop though? This is what I don't understand, had it been like a 9,T,Qspade board I'd see but here..just seems to dry imo.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Because his range is like 99+/AK, and nits hate folding overpairs.

 

[RamdeeBen]

We lose AK on the flop if we raise, which is the last thing we want because we lose 6 more potential outs for villain to hit which we might be able to get a stack from. If he has 99+ and of course 22, ,77, 88 he's going to stack those on the turn anyway? When the turn brings more draws, we can represent a much wider raising range which don't just include sets and I feel most nitty villains if they aren't capable of folding those over pairs like you say, this will usually be the spot they jam because they hate seeing more bad cards roll off and more river bets.


I might be off; but that's my experience so far with zoom and nits

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Agree to disagree I guess.

Anyone have any good resources on cbetting in 3bet pots??

 

[ScottishMatt]

^^ practice . . .

I've gotten a lot more comfortable recently in 3Bet pots. Just Cbet depending on what your opponents flatting range is. Your equity also comes into the equation too, even if you can narrow his range to 99/TT but you know he will peel one then I wouldn't be Cbetting unless I have enough equity, or can turn equity often enough to double barrel.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

3bet pots don't come up enough live or at 10nl on bovada for me to get practice tbh. And I can only have semi-accurate flatting ranges for live, not really HUD-less on Bovada. And I learn from a combination of reading/watching vids and then applying.

 

[Yoshimiii]

If villain had a set he was getting it in OTT. You can't induce from a nit in a spot like this, it simply isn't gonna happen. We can't check because we are miles ahead of his range and if he can hero the turn with an overpair then he can hero the river too. Ship it and if he turns over pocket 9s then we profit over the long term anyway.

River is alot wetter than the turn... Why can't the villain fold on the river? Also calling turn isn't hero calling if he has an overpair.

 

[Yoshimiii]

Flop is too dry, when you get raised on these sort of boards in zoom, it usually means one thing - sets. Our raising range on the turn has also widen a lot more on the turn, if he has a set on flop/turn he'll want to get it in on the turn - if he has over pairs he might just shove over rather than seeing the river.

What's your reason for wanting to raise the flop though? This is what I don't understand, had it been like a 9,T,Qspade board I'd see but here..just seems to dry imo.

That board is not too dry... Why can't you be raising J9, spade draws here? Perfect flop to raise and represent a draw. Also with the logic your applying, if the board is too dry to raise because it looks like you have a set then why don't you raise these types of flops with your weak/air hands?

Also we are talking about the same hand here yes? I am not talking about the JJ zoom hand...

 

[ScottishMatt]

River is alot wetter than the turn... Why can't the villain fold on the river? Also calling turn isn't hero calling if he has an overpair.

Most nits I play with understand Baluga well enough to fold almost all of their range when raised OTT. Which is what makes it such a great bluffing spot v them, I don't think that we should take the most effective bluff line with our value range presonally, but whatever.

 

[RamdeeBen]

That board is not too dry... Why can't you be raising J9, spade draws here? Perfect flop to raise and represent a draw. Also with the logic your applying, if the board is too dry to raise because it looks like you have a set then why don't you raise these types of flops with your weak/air hands?

Also we are talking about the same hand here yes? I am not talking about the JJ zoom hand...

I think the board is dry..there's only a spade draw out there, that doesn't make the board wet. I'd class a board wet if it had a flush draw and was like; Ts8d9s for example.

Also; I can't be raising J9 here as I'm never flatting UTG+1 vs his UTG range with any J9 hand and there is only one combo of J9 spades (which I'm also not flatting pre given positions) likely villian will realise there are more sets here than draws imo and it just woulden't make sense to raise a draw vs his clearly strong range of pairs and AK as he will stack sets/over pairs and we just have to fold. I'd be much more inclined to flat draws vs him.

Given positions my pre flop flatting range vs his range; is like pairs pretty much only and some AQs hands, which I'm sure he'll probably realize. When the turn brings more draws; it's now possible in villains eyes I've also flatted some suited connectors so given my whole range of pairs/sets/draws I think he's more likely to stack the turn as opposed to the flop as we don't just rep sets now.

I do raise dry boards with air/weak hands but it's more against aggressive players who's range consists of more air/weak hands themselves, not nits like this.

We're talking about the TT hand I thought?

 

[RamdeeBen]

Line check please.

Villian is 23/18, 11% 3bet. Fold to 3bet 70%.

Sure theres an argument for cbetting the flop; but I felt given it's a dry flop and we have a backdoor flush draw he's likely just going to fold most hands as my range might be face up to like JJ+

Do you think when we check the flop, bet the turn and shove the river we might get called wider or do you not think it makes no difference and we should just bet/bet/bet? I feel sometimes on boards like this; when we check and bet the turn/river it looks less likely we have JJ+ and he might call lighter + my line might look a bit bluffy too as there are quite a few missed draws, or is this a spot we only get called by better in general?


PokerStars - $0.25 NL ZOOM - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $26.00
Hero (SB): $25.00
BB: $16.80
UTG: $54.62
UTG+1: $56.81
MP: $7.72
MP+1: $26.27
LP: $14.73
CO: $24.90

Hero posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero has K:club: K:spade:

fold, fold, fold, MP+1 raises to $0.75, fold, CO calls $0.75, fold, Hero raises to $3.25, fold, fold, CO calls $2.50

Flop: ($7.50, 2 players) 2:club: J:diamond: 7:club:
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: ($7.50, 2 players) 4:spade:
Hero bets $5.50, CO calls $5.50

River: ($18.50, 2 players) 5:spade:
Hero bets $16.25 and is all-in, CO ....

 

[Matt Vaughan]

That board is not too dry... Why can't you be raising J9, spade draws here? Perfect flop to raise and represent a draw. Also with the logic your applying, if the board is too dry to raise because it looks like you have a set then why don't you raise these types of flops with your weak/air hands?

Also we are talking about the same hand here yes? I am not talking about the JJ zoom hand...

I think the board is dry..there's only a spade draw out there, that doesn't make the board wet. I'd class a board wet if it had a flush draw and was like; Ts8d9s for example.

Also; I can't be raising J9 here as I'm never flatting UTG+1 vs his UTG range with any J9 hand and there is only one combo of J9 spades (which I'm also not flatting pre given positions) likely villian will realise there are more sets here than draws imo and it just woulden't make sense to raise a draw vs his clearly strong range of pairs and AK as he will stack sets/over pairs and we just have to fold. I'd be much more inclined to flat draws vs him.

Given positions my pre flop flatting range vs his range; is like pairs pretty much only and some AQs hands, which I'm sure he'll probably realize. When the turn brings more draws; it's now possible in villains eyes I've also flatted some suited connectors so given my whole range of pairs/sets/draws I think he's more likely to stack the turn as opposed to the flop as we don't just rep sets now.

I do raise dry boards with air/weak hands but it's more against aggressive players who's range consists of more air/weak hands themselves, not nits like this.

We're talking about the TT hand I thought?

He was saying you COULD do that with J9 - ie he thinks J9 is likely in your raise-the-flop range. We are talking about the TT hand.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

And as a general rule I'm just cbetting there. It's not really that hard for him to have Jx here, and unless you never cbet this board as bluff in a 3bet pot, your range is NOT face up as JJ+. And if you never cbet it as a bluff but you think he folds a good portion of his range then you're ridiculously unbalanced lol.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Watch and tell me how bad I am prease.

 

[duggs]

I think the board is dry..there's only a spade draw out there, that doesn't make the board wet. I'd class a board wet if it had a flush draw and was like; Ts8d9s for example.

Also; I can't be raising J9 here as I'm never flatting UTG+1 vs his UTG range with any J9 hand and there is only one combo of J9 spades (which I'm also not flatting pre given positions) likely villian will realise there are more sets here than draws imo and it just woulden't make sense to raise a draw vs his clearly strong range of pairs and AK as he will stack sets/over pairs and we just have to fold. I'd be much more inclined to flat draws vs him.

Given positions my pre flop flatting range vs his range; is like pairs pretty much only and some AQs hands, which I'm sure he'll probably realize. When the turn brings more draws; it's now possible in villains eyes I've also flatted some suited connectors so given my whole range of pairs/sets/draws I think he's more likely to stack the turn as opposed to the flop as we don't just rep sets now.

I do raise dry boards with air/weak hands but it's more against aggressive players who's range consists of more air/weak hands themselves, not nits like this.

We're talking about the TT hand I thought?

your definition of a wet board is pretty tight, that board is in the top 5% of boards in terms of wetness. the villain is literally at the top of his range with AA there, if you genuinely think he folds AA (the 2nd best hand in his opening range there then just bluff 100%.

your logic is flawed in that it cant be both a bad spot to value raise and a bad spot to bluff raise. you said he will stack overpairs. its 100 times easier to do that by raising flop than turn. turn raises rep LESS bluff combos than a flop raise as you are leveraging a smaller SPR which makes it easier for villain to call down

 

[duggs]

Flop is too dry, when you get raised on these sort of boards in zoom, it usually means one thing - sets. Our raising range on the turn has also widen a lot more on the turn, if he has a set on flop/turn he'll want to get it in on the turn - if he has over pairs he might just shove over rather than seeing the river.

What's your reason for wanting to raise the flop though? This is what I don't understand, had it been like a 9,T,Qspade board I'd see but here..just seems to dry imo.

flop is not dry in any way shape or form. he stacks over pairs. then its instantly the most profitable line since 9/J/A/7/spades can all kill our action or lower our equity. and thats a heap of the deck. there are so many combos of hands we can also bluff here. but villian having AK is a moot point, we dont care about that portion of his range folding, we care about stacking the portion of his range than includes 99+ which is 30 combos, compared with 16 combos of AK

 

[duggs]

We lose AK on the flop if we raise, which is the last thing we want because we lose 6 more potential outs for villain to hit which we might be able to get a stack from. If he has 99+ and of course 22, ,77, 88 he's going to stack those on the turn anyway? When the turn brings more draws, we can represent a much wider raising range which don't just include sets and I feel most nitty villains if they aren't capable of folding those over pairs like you say, this will usually be the spot they jam because they hate seeing more bad cards roll off and more river bets.


I might be off; but that's my experience so far with zoom and nits

but the thing is 99+ is so far from an auto stack its important to get another bet in as early as possible, 99-QQ will definitely not auto stack on an A turn. which is already 18 combos which is more than the 12 combos that turn top pair when A or K turns, not to mention oversetting or the board peeling another spade. its uber important to get at least 2 bets in on this flop.

see above post but id take stacking JJ+ and getting another bet on flop from 99 any day than tryto prevent them folding a part of their range we are pretty indifferent about (AK)

 

[duggs]

3bet pots don't come up enough live or at 10nl on bovada for me to get practice tbh. And I can only have semi-accurate flatting ranges for live, not really HUD-less on Bovada. And I learn from a combination of reading/watching vids and then applying.

sweat me in deep games, i 3bet heaps and dont fold to many so it should come up a bunch

 

[RamdeeBen]

He was saying you COULD do that with J9 - ie he thinks J9 is likely in your raise-the-flop range. We are talking about the TT hand.

I know what your saying, but have you seen positions? I'm sure he's a tag reg; he'll likely know I'm not flatting J9 UTG+1 vs his range. Don't you think?

And as a general rule I'm just cbetting there. It's not really that hard for him to have Jx here, and unless you never cbet this board as bluff in a 3bet pot, your range is NOT face up as JJ+. And if you never cbet it as a bluff but you think he folds a good portion of his range then you're ridiculously unbalanced lol.

lol; Yeah, my of course my default is for sure cbetting this flop nearly always with my air hands I think I was just thinking at the time; he could bet Jx or air hands himself once checked to him and there aren't many bad turn cards which we can't bet turns + rivers which might get some extra value from the Jx/worse pairs. I just felt given our 3bet pre; if we fire the flop, he'll obviously fold all his air hands and likely most middle pocket pairs meaning we're left with hoping he calls one street with Jx/QQ.

 

[Yoshimiii]

I know what your saying, but have you seen positions? I'm sure he's a tag reg; he'll likely know I'm not flatting J9 UTG+1 vs his range. Don't you think?

If he even thinks on that level. Anyway you can still represent a flush draw by raising the flop.

 

[Yoshimiii]

Line check please.

Villian is 23/18, 11% 3bet. Fold to 3bet 70%.

Sure theres an argument for cbetting the flop; but I felt given it's a dry flop and we have a backdoor flush draw he's likely just going to fold most hands as my range might be face up to like JJ+

Do you think when we check the flop, bet the turn and shove the river we might get called wider or do you not think it makes no difference and we should just bet/bet/bet? I feel sometimes on boards like this; when we check and bet the turn/river it looks less likely we have JJ+ and he might call lighter + my line might look a bit bluffy too as there are quite a few missed draws, or is this a spot we only get called by better in general?


PokerStars - $0.25 NL ZOOM - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $26.00
Hero (SB): $25.00
BB: $16.80
UTG: $54.62
UTG+1: $56.81
MP: $7.72
MP+1: $26.27
LP: $14.73
CO: $24.90

Hero posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero has K<font color='black'>♣</font> K<font color='black'>♠</font>

fold, fold, fold, MP+1 raises to $0.75, fold, CO calls $0.75, fold, Hero raises to $3.25, fold, fold, CO calls $2.50

Flop: ($7.50, 2 players) 2<font color='black'>♣</font> J<font color='red'>♦</font> 7<font color='black'>♣</font>
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: ($7.50, 2 players) 4<font color='black'>♠</font>
Hero bets $5.50, CO calls $5.50

River: ($18.50, 2 players) 5<font color='black'>♠</font>
Hero bets $16.25 and is all-in, CO ....

What hand would you ever check/bet/bet here that he can beat.. You would probably check back TT and lower on the river and bet the flop with draws. The line is fine I guess but I would need a reason to do this line instead of bet/bet/bet, e.g. he folds AJ/QQ OTT if we bet/bet.

Also most people bet draws on the flop, usually they don't take free cards when they can c-bet and take it down, especially in 3 bet pots.

 

[RamdeeBen]

Thanks for replies duggs; I take your comments on board and yeah I think you might be right, my definition of wet boards are pretty tight compared to most.