***PLO Cash Game Thread***

[slycbnew]

Oh yeah - I'm generally playing the 40-100bb tables at PS. I've tried the 20-50bb tables, but I get bored too quickly, so I pretty much ignore those. I've tried the 100-250bb + antes tables and am finding that my pf game doesn't work at these tables - I generally run around 20/14 at the 40-100bb tables (yes I'm a nit), but at the 100-250bb tables I'm getting crushed in pots that I open and/or 3bet with my normal ranges - there are just too many limpers/callers. As a result, I'm overlimping alot more than normal (I rarely open limp at any tables, once in a while with a crappy big pair hand at a passive table). Thoughts?

 

[Marginal]

Whats your betsizing preflop and how often are you 4 betting? You will get more limpers but I mean once you are in position it should be ok because they still suck at postflop and either shove to light/ fold too strong a hand.

 

[slycbnew]

Ah, cool, that makes sense. My 4bet range is pretty tiny and predictable - guess I should work on that in position.

Betsizing - I open pot/3bet pot everywhere except BTN, where I open 4xBB if the table is full (it's rare, though, that I get to open a pot on the BTN, since there's so much limping). If I raise over a limper, I'm potting. I rarely raise over two limpers without, say, a premium rundown fwiw.

Betsizing too big?

 

[Marginal]

Nah, I almost never, not pot preflop. My thinking is that there is more money in postflop play and we need to set up those oppertunites to get the max with a good amount preflop. Also, preflop is an area which is overlooked by most and thus they make highly -EV plays and we must capitalize.

 

[Tygran]

I am seriously depressed right now... dunno what to do.

head is massively screwed up and I can't win ANYTHING at any kind of plo table right now...

 

[Tygran]

Meh...

I'm going to take a few days and watch a few videos and go over my last several sessions one more time. Pretty sure I've spotted a thing or two I shouldn't be doing, I think it's tilt/frustration. And a ton of just bad luck. On like a 45ish BI downswing right now (don't feel like looking to see exactly what it is).

Anybody want to swap sweats in a few days maybe?

 

[slycbnew]

Interested. I won't be available before the weekend though.

 

[slycbnew]

Feeling better about my deepstack play, thanks marginal.

Another question - I'm running into a couple of fish, but also several regs, who are in love with flipping preflop at 100bb's. The range they're using gets wider against very nitty (i.e., guys who almost certainly are playing AAxx) and very loose opponents, but essentially it's any AKxx double suit to the A and the K, any double suited rundown starting with 87xx (occasionally single suited), AAxx (ldo), and occasionally random crappy hands (J873ss for example). Since I know their range is wide, I'm occasionally playing back at them with my own double suited rundowns, double paired hands, and broadway pair hands.

Their equity is rarely worse than 45% against my hands, and sometimes I'm the 45% dog. I'm generally calling in position rather than 4betting. I'm reluctant to 4bet these guys specifically because they're shoving over 4bets frequently.

How should I be thinking about this? 4bet the premium rundowns and call with the rest? Fold more? They're fos and I should be playing back at them on the flop more than I do when I miss? etc. Feel like I'm spewing money by calling and folding the flop too often.

 

[Marginal]

So say, you get into one of those situations where you call and they bet the flop. You know their range is wide so what is usually the minimum you need to call/ raise a bet on the flop?

A lot of times (not always) against these players, it is not too horrible to stick in 40% of your stack preflop and essentially shove any pair/ decent draw on the flop because your equity will usually be good. They are not very likeable situations and you will be playing the variance game but its usually ok to take these neutral/ slightly -ev situations to build a very loose image while infact a player like you is very tight, so it cant hurt really.

Also, getting it in preflop is not going to be horrible but obviously you cant do it too often.

 

[Marginal]

Also, I hope we are not creating a new thread for the month? I think everything should be kept in this one thread so it seems more important than it is

 

[slycbnew]

I think the dozen of us that post itt would get confused if we had to hunt for a new one every month... at least I would...

 

[Makwa]

^^ Last few posts... I don't like flipping for stacks PF... lose a couple of BIs and I get toasted...

This kind of PF action I see more at Stars and Tilt, I tend to avoid it.

I like the loose passive play at Bodog and AP... lots of limping PF but if you catch a monster they will call to the river with lousy EV...

Guess I just like easy fishing spots, and don't like risking BIs against regs...

 

[Makwa]

Here is what I mean... on Stars u can see major losses when I dump BIs... (usually ten bucks, sometimes 25)... On the Dog there is a gradual incremental series of wins with a few BIs won also...
Right now I am trying to slooowly win back my money at Stars... but its tempting to keep going back to the Dog and AP (HEM can't read my files there, but the chart would look like Bodog if I could get it to work)...

 

[Marginal]

Well, it is good that you are sticking to what you are more confident about but over that kinda sample it could have well been reversed. You should also try to adjust to the games because while you may always have a safe haven in bodog, if you gradually move up, people will know how to play to make you uncomfortable etc etc.

 

[Makwa]

Well, it is good that you are sticking to what you are more confident about but over that kinda sample it could have well been reversed. You should also try to adjust to the games because while you may always have a safe haven in bodog, if you gradually move up, people will know how to play to make you uncomfortable etc etc.

Yes, but there is no safe haven for long, so I continue to work on tuffer games on Stars and Tilt... Bodog will get tuffer eventually. There is not much moving up there either, most of the games are micro, little action at Lo.

No I dont think that sample woulda reversed. As I said, Stars and Tilt are much tuffer than the small sites, where there are only a few good PLO players around...

 

[slycbnew]

meh, sample could easily be reversed. Down 4bi's in my last session yesterday - but I was allin 9 times and lost 8 of those, 2 as 40%+, 6 above 55%, could easily have had a winning session.

Alot of what I need to do is to get more comfortable with equity against ranges, and to get my mind around pot odds for flipping. I've never really liked flipping - the loose passive tables are a heckuva lot easier than the agg tables, since nobody can hand read - but like marginal says, this is a weak part of my game that I need to fix.

 

[slycbnew]

Oh, and I fully realize the lunacy of not liking flipping but liking PLO.

 

[Marginal]

Oh, and I fully realize the lunacy of not liking flipping but liking PLO.

Thats is in comparison to liking steaks and being a vegan.

 

[Marginal]

Playing 43/35 for no apparent reason is working out pretty well for now.

 

[Makwa]

meh, sample could easily be reversed.

Alot of what I need to do is to get more comfortable with equity against ranges, and to get my mind around pot odds for flipping. I've never really liked flipping - the loose passive tables are a heckuva lot easier than the agg tables, since nobody can hand read - but like marginal says, this is a weak part of my game that I need to fix.

Sure a small sample but NO, no reversal here. I have 2 other graphs, one from Tilt (nosedive) and one from AP (straight up 45 degrees)... even w small samples, my observation is that LP tables pay (with my style there which is LAG), and that TAG Agro regs drive me into the ditch...

I get Marginal and EV pre and post, pretty much, but do not like PF Maniac play, saw too much in HE. In short, I like deep stacks and lots of flops. Not a chance if people are 4 betting evry hand or so; I leave those tables alone.

Sure with huge samples/multitables your +EV on some shoves pay... but in smaller arenas I like to play the players and styles, along with the EV.

What I really love about PLO are the chasers and dreamers postflop, who lack streetwise calculations, much more fun and complex than HE.

 

[Makwa]

Playing 43/35 for no apparent reason is working out pretty well for now.

Well, there's a sample for you... any graphs??

 

[Marginal]

There is no better thing in poker, regardless of game, that a person who is willing to ship a lot of money in pre and postflop. You kinda have it backwards, you dont want to find a game where people are tighter etc, you want the games were people are 4 betting junk and shipping lots of flops.

 

[Marginal]

Well, there's a sample for you... any graphs??

Only 1K hands up a buyin or 2, havent checked but its not been smooth ofcourse. A lot of swings as you would imagine.

 

[Makwa]

There is no better thing in poker, regardless of game, that a person who is willing to ship a lot of money in pre and postflop. You kinda have it backwards, you dont want to find a game where people are tighter etc, you want the games were people are 4 betting junk and shipping lots of flops.

Yes to sentence 1, No to 2, I said Loose Passive, not tight.

You are describing maniacs 4 betting junk and shipping; I am talking about TAG regs not afraid to flip with a little equity PF. I dont wanna coin flip all day; want a fish dinner.

The best thing in poker are the ones who regularly donate by chasing losing draws, then ship their last chips on second nuts, LOL. I wait for them, pray for them, in stud and elsewhere.

 

[slycbnew]

Yeah, I'm realizing that deepstacked play involves a lot wider range of hands that play for implied odds (i.e., you can afford to call more) - one of the reasons I'm having problems deep is that limping ranges are absurdly wide for what I'm used to at 100bb's, so I'm having a difficult time putting anyone on a range postflop.

I got called a donk yesterday for calling down with top pair, an overpair, and 2nd nut fd on a wildly uncoordinated board on a deep table - 824J two toned on the turn if I remember right - rivered the flush - the guy who was irritated limped AQ82r pf and called my raise (I had KKQJtt). To each his own - I thought he was the donk, I never would have put him on that hand.