***PLO Cash Game Thread***

[Mase31683]

Posted this in HA, but figured it'd get better response here.

Full Tilt Poker $0.02/$0.05 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 4 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BTN: $10.54
Hero (SB): $6.29
BB: $3.44
CO: $9.61

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is SB with T ♠ 9 ♥ 8 ♠ 8 ♥
CO raises to $0.17, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.15, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.39) K ♥ Q ♦ 8 ♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.39, Hero raises to $1.56, CO calls $1.17

Turn: ($3.51) J ♣ (2 players)
Hero bets $3.51, CO calls $3.51

River: ($10.53) 8 ♣ (2 players)
Hero bets $1.05 all in, CO calls $1.05

Played this hand pretty bad I think, but not sure how to handle bottom set on a drawy flop. On the flop I don't really like seeing the K/Q since KK/QQ are both solidly in his range. However it seems like there's a lot of hands I'm still beating that I don't want to let continue for cheap so that's why I chose to raise. Once he flats I'm definitely happy and just don't want to let a third diamond peel off.

The turn was terrible, and that's where things really fell apart I think. That Jack turns JJxx into a winner against me as well, and also fills in straight draws, which sucks. My thought at this point was basically, I didn't raise the flop to give up now, gotta protect v diamonds, and I still have 10 outs to boat+ even if you did just suck out, so I hate you and I bet. Should I be check/calling, bet/folding instead? I think I'd prefer a bet of about 1/2 pot hoping to act as a blocker and allowing me to get it in on safe rivers, and check/hate life on bad ones when villain jams for me.

Obviously the river is solid, and now it doesn't matter what villain had, but overall this hand just felt like it was going down ugly.

Any advice/thoughts/ridicule appreciated

 

[cAPSLOCK]

I don't play many limit or pot limit games and here is why. This has happened to me live and on line.

I have been dealt good starting cards (hold-em, for an example) like AA,KK orQQ. I have raised the max allowed and got callers. I have raised the max allowed on every street and still got callers. My opponents who are usually on a draw, end up getting there one or two outer card. I end up getting beat.

You should avoid limit like the plague then.

And you are complaining about having bad players at your table.

In the end pot limit will help you with seeing the game from a mathematical perspective, teach pot control and make you place greater importance on position.

Although playing omaha might have a bad effect on holdem playing as we have been discussing, I think playing pot limit in general helps with no limit play.

 

[c9h13no3]

The whole problem is that when other players know that it is only going to cost them a minimum amount of chips, they go ahead and make donk calls hoping to get lucky and draw out. Limit games seem to offer a special invitation to THE BIG DONKS of poker.

God forbid a game that encourages players to make bad decisions, invites the big fish in, and forces you to play postflop! I really wish that I could force all my opponents to make correct decisions by betting really big!

 

[c9h13no3]

The turn was terrible, and that's where things really fell apart I think. That Jack turns JJxx into a winner against me as well, and also fills in straight draws, which sucks.

Since it fills in *YOUR* straight draw, I can't really figure out why that sucks?

 

[Mase31683]

Since it fills in *YOUR* straight draw, I can't really figure out why that sucks?

HA HA HA!!! Omg I just spit cereal all over my lappy. I think I need to not 6table Omaha, ha ha ha. Wowwwwwwwwww

 

[slycbnew]

I don't play many limit or pot limit games and here is why. This has happened to me live and on line.

...

I am confident if I were able to put in a much higher raise I would have taken down the pot. The whole problem is that when other players know that it is only going to cost them a minimum amount of chips, they go ahead and make donk calls hoping to get lucky and draw out. Limit games seem to offer a special invitation to THE BIG DONKS of poker.

Fixed limit games are very different from no limit/pot limit. In fl, you generally have a lot better odds to call w draws than in nl or pl - and your opponents have those better odds as well. You don't expect draws to fold when the odds of hitting the draw are, say, 8:1 and the pot is laying them 10:1 (10:1 is good enough to call a bare gutshot draw fwiw).

Did want to point out, though - you place bets really w one of two goals in mind - to get a better hand to fold or to get a worse hand to call (there is at least one other reason, but I'm going to ignore that atm). If you're betting in nl in such a way that you're shutting out worse hands from calling, you're not maximizing value - you want to bet enough to make sure they're drawing incorrectly, but not so much that they actually just fold, and as much as you think they'll call incorrectly.

 

[slycbnew]

Mase, fwiw, I don't like c/r'ing the flop w bottom set - I'd prefer donking and fold to a raise (unless I know we're going to make quads by the river... ).

 

[cjatud2012]

Posted this in HA, but figured it'd get better response here.

...

This isn't really the flop that we're hoping for with T988. Something like 872 be better. With this flop, we have about 50/50 equity against a combo draws, like a straight draw + flush draw, or two pair + some other draw. We're also getting crushed by bigger sets. We really can't expect much more action from any other hands. Seems like a reverse-implied odds situation. We can't really pay to take our hand to the river, I kinda like sly's suggestion of b/f since we can't float this out of position very easily/cheaply.

 

[Makwa]

Questions for the Experts re PT3 optimum stats PLO and PLO8

K have been reading and winding my way through this very confusing thread (supposed to be PLO, but now mixed in with PLO 8) and really, most posts belong in the HA section, not a general discussion about PLO. In separate threads please.

Anyhoo, just got PT3 PLO and was wondering what peeps see as optimum VP and PFR ranges, both full and short, for both PLO and PLO8. Are these numbers commonly known as they are for HE? What ranges in numbers should I be looking for?

PLO:
VPIP:
PFR:

PLO 8:
VPIP:
PFR:

As an aside, a comment on the Hwang comment:

I have and have read both his books...

Do NOT get his first one... it's geared more towards a full ring PLO table and is very VERY nitty.

His second isn't bad though, worth a look.



// If you aren't a DC member I'd join there and watch some PLO vids over the Hwang book though

The first one is most highly recommended, yes is nitty but solid. Second I haven't read, but reviews say is simplistic (based on small ball floating strategy 6 max) which is fine, but I think the Nit approach is best for early Omaha and also PLO8 players, (and there the commonalities start to disappear, hence the confusion in lumping them in one thread).

Separate threads for HA, and then PLO or PLO8 strategies, Please!!

 

[slycbnew]

You can crosspost link HA's here.

PLO VPIP/PFR - I think 20/15 to 40/30 can all be profitable. However, the game is so table dependent that I think it's nec to warn people not to shoot for VPIP/PFR targets. Loose passive tables play extremely differently from tight aggressive tables.

I'm still torn about having all the Omaha games in one thread. I'd love to see sufficient activity to justify separate threads for PLO, FLO8, PLO8, and (shudder, sorry bbb ) NLO8, but doubt we'd be able to generate enough interest to sustain separate threads. However, the strategies in these games vary enough that it's awfully confusing (I botched reading one of bbb's posts ).

So, if you have really strong opinions, let me know - I was considering renaming the thread to just Omaha Cash Games.

I really don't play much PLO8, stick mostly w FLO8. VPIP/PFR for O8 games should be lower than for your Omaha Hi games.

 

[slycbnew]

Oh, I should point out, for PLO VPIP/PFR I only play 6max, so those numbers may be badly off for FR. imo, you're going to prob lose money in the long run if your VPIP is much less than 20 (rake, blinds) and much higher than 40 (spewing money off) in 6max.

Again, though, table conditions are critical - at microstakes, where loose passive is the name of the game and postflop play is poor, a much higher VPIP may work just fine.

 

[c9h13no3]

Again, though, table conditions are critical - at microstakes, where loose passive is the name of the game and postflop play is poor, a much higher VPIP may work just fine.

Ya, stox poker had a couple of 100% VPIP videos for PLO, and they ended up showing a profit for the sessions played at microstakes.

 

[Makwa]

Oh, I should point out, for PLO VPIP/PFR I only play 6max, so those numbers may be badly off for FR. imo, you're going to prob lose money in the long run if your VPIP is much less than 20 (rake, blinds) and much higher than 40 (spewing money off) in 6max.

Again, though, table conditions are critical - at microstakes, where loose passive is the name of the game and postflop play is poor, a much higher VPIP may work just fine.

Very true about table conditions... I am playing a lot of full ring and am a traditional nit, so hard to get more than 20 myself... Yes 08 should be lower if playing only platinum hands...

Ya Sly I am not suggesting aiming for numbers per se, table selection and conditions way more important, it was more of a PT3 question -- what do winners numbers look like over time? When I hit 10K hands with my new PT3 PLO (yum) maybe I will share some numbers...

Ya, stox poker had a couple of 100% VPIP videos for PLO, and they ended up showing a profit for the sessions played at microstakes.

Skeeery/// Its true some argue any hand is playable in PLO; I don't agree unless u r super strong postflop playah...

 

[slycbnew]

Still waiting for some feedback on separating PLO from other Omaha games, so I feel free to mention this...

Just watched a Joe Tall vid on DC on LO8 (roughly 1 year old), it's a HH review (quite good fwiw). At the end of the vid, he talks a bit about FR vs. 6max/shorthanded - FR being very low variance, but shorthanded being higher variance than holdem games.

He says FR is quite easy to play - Do you have the nuts? No? Fold. Hence the low variance.

Still giggling away at that.

 

[BenLZ]

Link too the vid?

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Still waiting for some feedback on separating PLO from other Omaha games, so I feel free to mention this...

Feedback from us? Or from the site admins etc...

I personally understand that people are uncomfortable lumping PLO and PLO8... makes sense as the two games play very very differently, though it doesn't bother me.

I just don't know that there is enough interest in the various O games here yet.

 

[slycbnew]

Looking for feedback from Omaha players, not admins.

Ben, the video is a DeucesCracked video, Mentor Joe Tall #4 - O8 with sthief09.

 

[slycbnew]

For anyone who's playing mixed games, check out this video: https://www.cardschat.com/f53/giantbuddha-analyzes-hand-lhe-176459/

 

[BenLZ]

Still waiting for some feedback on separating PLO from other Omaha games, so I feel free to mention this...

Just watched a Joe Tall vid on DC on LO8 (roughly 1 year old), it's a HH review (quite good fwiw). At the end of the vid, he talks a bit about FR vs. 6max/shorthanded - FR being very low variance, but shorthanded being higher variance than holdem games.

He says FR is quite easy to play - Do you have the nuts? No? Fold. Hence the low variance.

Still giggling away at that.

I would definitely support this. Even PLO and PLO8 are two very different games. I've focused more on O8 as a bankroll builder, just looking for good sites to play on.

 

[Makwa]

Looking for feedback from Omaha players, not admins.

I think we could try a PLO and separate PLO8 thread, would have to mix limit and NL (ugh) but would be easier to navigate than now. I would keep up with both :dontknow: ...

PLO8 was a great bankroll, bonus and rakeback builder for me (huge pots), but even PL it is a bit like watching paint dry, especially FR...

 

[Makwa]

PLO 6 Man - Notes on HUD Stats Ranges

PLO 6 Man - Notes on HUD Stats Ranges

My Notes from an IggyMcfly (Ian Gordon) Video at DragtheBar. I think it is OK to post your notes from a video or whatever? Should be I think :dontknow:..

http://www.dragthebar.com/poker-videos/viewer.php?id=87

You can get 7 day free membership to join/view videos (Not an endorsement but I like the site so far, for PLO anyway). I found it good, in keeping with earlier posts on ballpark figures… Iggy explains his reasons for these numbers quite well… also cautions that numbers are approximate, and can help show tendencies, but there is much more to reading a hand/player… also cautions you need a good sample of hands for stats to be meaningful.

VPIP
Good ~25-40
Not Bad, maybe too Loose 40-50
Too Tight/Missing Some Opportunities/Small Range ~20
Spewing 50+
Table Selection:
Get Position on ~60+
OOP on 80+ is OK
Get Position on deep stacks (more decisions and streets than shorties)

PFR
Good ~20+
Don’t 3 Bet 10 to -20 (Passive, waiting for AA)
3 Bet Wide LAG 30+

3 Bet%
Good ~8-12 (Hurt people raising too wide, as in PFR over 30, isolate with rundowns etc.)
Could Mean As (naked or no) 2-7 (2 IP to 7 OOP)

Went to Showdown (How loose or tight overall)
Good 24-28
Loose 30+
Tight 22-

Postflop Aggression
Good ~2.5-5
Passive -.5 (likely to bet nuts) .5-1 (similar) 2 (Passive side also)
Agro 5+ (will bet draws)

C Bet
Good ~50-65 Bet based on board, number of players
Passive ~43 and under, 43-50 won’t C bet multiway, will fold to C Bet on dry board
Agro 65+ Check or check raise into him

 

[Tygran]

I really think trying to put PLO stats into "good" and "bad" categories is more or less a waste of time.... Lots of different styles can be profitable...

and the biggest factor in what your numbers are should be the table you are at and where you are sitting on it.

 

[Makwa]

I really think trying to put PLO stats into "good" and "bad" categories is more or less a waste of time.... Lots of different styles can be profitable...

and the biggest factor in what your numbers are should be the table you are at and where you are sitting on it.

No waste, no waste... I used Good to mean recommended or optimal ranges as Iggy described... he did not use term Good, my Bad... or Bad either... just numbers as reflecting tendencies in play....

Please elaborate on these "lots of different styles"

Yes table selection and position is crucial, but this video, though it touches on these, is not about that.

 

[slycbnew]

The notes you have on stats match more or less what I remember from a whitelime video.

I agree that a lot of styles can be profitable, and that shooting for specific stats is probably a mistake. Flipping it around, though, how are we targeting villain types based on stats?

25/16, 4% 3bet
40/30, 10% 3bet
40/2, 0% 3bet
20/2, 0% 3bet
70/35, 8% 3bet
70/10, 4% 3bet

I tend to 3bet iso w a wider range against loose passive players than against tight aggressive players on BTN (and CO if BTN's tight). I tend to play postflop more aggressively against loose passive players, since I'm expecting them to call w crap more than TAG's. I'm more likely to respect aggression from loose passive players on raggedy boards than from TAG's.

 

[slycbnew]

Oh, I'll change the thread name back to PLO and start an O8 thread later today.