Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

Figaroo2 · Sep 21, 2017

loss rates calling 3bets in and out of position

John A said:
I think it's hard to create a good "std" calling range because position of open and 3-bet, type of player you are and your opponent in creates too many variables. I think in general you just obviously don't want cards that will be easily dominated. 100bb effective you should really just be super selective w/ your calling range.

I think most people calling 3-bets oop can't achieve -250bbs/100. At least from the data I've seen. IP, a much different story. And really, until you build any history with someone I'd error heavily on the side of folding to any 3-bets w/ marginal hands OOP. When in doubt, fold. But IP call w/ a much much wider range. So if someone is just looking at call 3-bet%, it looks in a std range. Then when you build history, calling with some SC's (in certain spots), and AK/AQ type hands and occasional big hands JJ+.

I agree with what John says here, calling 3bets oop is completely player dependent but generally the wider they 3bet the wider I'm calling.

My stats for calling 3bets OOP and IP, for info. 800,000 hand sample.

mrpolyglott · Sep 23, 2017

Hey there again guys! I've just found that there is a problem downloading this book with the help of the link given in the beggining of the thread. The problem is following: I enter my name and e-mail, click (register) button and it starts sending, re-freshing the page and then red point pops up and nothing is delivered to my e-mail, is there any possibility to get the book somehow other way? I'm eager to learn and study with u, however there is no matirial according to which I would be able to do it. Thx a lot!

John A · Sep 24, 2017

Figaroo2 said:
I agree with what John says here, calling 3bets oop is completely player dependent but generally the wider they 3bet the wider I'm calling.

My stats for calling 3bets OOP and IP, for info. 800,000 hand sample.

Good stats... just have to get your IP up there a little more. I'd love to see it -50bb/100 or less. But looking good man.

John A · Sep 24, 2017

mrpolyglott said:
Hey there again guys! I've just found that there is a problem downloading this book with the help of the link given in the beggining of the thread. The problem is following: I enter my name and e-mail, click (register) button and it starts sending, re-freshing the page and then red point pops up and nothing is delivered to my e-mail, is there any possibility to get the book somehow other way? I'm eager to learn and study with u, however there is no matirial according to which I would be able to do it. Thx a lot!

Yeah, probably an old link at this point. I'll have to check it out. Just enter your e-mail on this page and you'll get it.

http://www.acepokersolutions.com/free-poker-books/

hurtadoak · Sep 24, 2017

Im in, thanks for your support man!

John A · Sep 25, 2017

hurtadoak said:
Im in, thanks for your support man!

Yes, absolutely. Welcome...

mrpolyglott · Sep 25, 2017

Thanks, man! Now, after having downloaded it, I'm oficially in

Is it better to start from the very begining following the thread or from current spot?

Alucard · Sep 26, 2017

John A said:
You have to run a position report in PT4. I don't have PT on this system, only on my main system that I'm not on yet. But if you go into reports there's a drop down to run a report by position. Just look for your SB unopened raise%.

I think attempt to steal the blinds is the same right?

My attempt to steal the blinds from SB is - 52.52

One more thing. My 3bet PF is way higher from the blinds than BU & CO

3Bet PF

BTN - 6.42
CO - 5.11
MP - 2.83
BB- 10.04
SB - 8.58

I think this is to get folds from CO & BTN but when I miss I struggle how to continue post flop

Alucard · Sep 26, 2017

One last thing I think I should mention.

I think generally you should be loosing from the SB right?
But I am winning though.
But still I feel I'm struggling at certain spots.

From SB (From a 19.7k sample)

hands - 4277
VPIP - 33.35
PFR - 29.29
C won - $10.82
C won w/o blind - $55.36
bb/hand - 0.11

From BB

Hands - 4203
VPIP - 24.19
PFR - 11.23
c won - -$29.66
C won W/o blind - $59.65
bb/hand - -0.36

Any input is welcome regarding those stats as I have no clue how to improve my game reading those.

John A · Sep 27, 2017

mrpolyglott said:
Thanks, man! Now, after having downloaded it, I'm oficially in Is it better to start from the very begining following the thread or from current spot?

I'd just start from where we're at now. You can go back and there is some good info in the first several pages of this thread, but it's a lot of info to wade through.

John A · Sep 27, 2017

Alucard said:
I think attempt to steal the blinds is the same right?

My attempt to steal the blinds from SB is - 52.52

One more thing. My 3bet PF is way higher from the blinds than BU & CO

3Bet PF

BTN - 6.42
CO - 5.11
MP - 2.83
BB- 10.04
SB - 8.58

I think this is to get folds from CO & BTN but when I miss I struggle how to continue post flop

Yeah, I think that should be the same stat. 52% is high. Maybe you can get away w/ it at your stake level. As you move up you're going to be 3-bet to heck if your numbers are that high. What is your BTN UO% then? This should be a good amount higher than from the SB.

As far as your 3-bet, yeah you just have to re-train yourself to think about these spots different, because you highlighted the main problem. When you miss OOP, what are you doing? And you want to make sure you're staying very polarized in the SB. You should be folding or 3-betting more from there, than the BB. You can flat call more from the BB with your non-polarized range against co/btn opens profitably.

Alucard · Oct 1, 2017

John A said:
Yeah, I think that should be the same stat. 52% is high. Maybe you can get away w/ it at your stake level. As you move up you're going to be 3-bet to heck if your numbers are that high. What is your BTN UO% then? This should be a good amount higher than from the SB.

As far as your 3-bet, yeah you just have to re-train yourself to think about these spots different, because you highlighted the main problem. When you miss OOP, what are you doing? And you want to make sure you're staying very polarized in the SB. You should be folding or 3-betting more from there, than the BB. You can flat call more from the BB with your non-polarized range against co/btn opens profitably.

lol my attempt to steal from btn is 28.54.

BtW anyone got a good standard BB defending range? flat, fold & 3betting against positions? My defending ranges might need some work.
And should I adjust my BB defending a lot player wise?

John A · Oct 4, 2017

Alucard said:
lol my attempt to steal from btn is 28.54.

BtW anyone got a good standard BB defending range? flat, fold & 3betting against positions? My defending ranges might need some work.
And should I adjust my BB defending a lot player wise?

28%? No.... no way.

Yes, you should defend a lot vs. weak players. The weaker they are, the wider your range gets. I have some default ranges in polished poker for calling, and 3-betting from the blinds. I still think it's a solid strategy overall.

In general right now, the poker community is going through one of those extreme adjustment periods about blind defense (like it's done over the year on all aspects of the game). Generally, people don't do X enough, and then some pros say you need to do X more, and everyone ends up going to the opposite extreme and doing X too much. Then eventually they realize it's too much, and they end up somewhere more balanced. I could name countless things I've watched the poker community do this about over the years. Opening in EP, 3-betting, 4-betting, cold calling, and on and on... today's over adjustment, is defending in the BB. And I believe this is mainly because people like Doug Polk are talking about it a lot.

I still hold that my defense strategy works best, but you do need to add more flat calling in the BB if people are min raising.

Alucard · Oct 4, 2017

Where can I find your defence strategy?
And I tried a couple of times to download your book. But it doesn't seem to work :icon_scra

John A · Oct 4, 2017

Alucard said:
Where can I find your defence strategy?
And I tried a couple of times to download your book. But it doesn't seem to work :icon_scra

On the whole section called, blind defense.

You entered your email on this page?

http://www.acepokersolutions.com/free-poker-books/

Supmargy · Oct 4, 2017

John A said:
On the whole section called, blind defense. You entered your email on this page?

http://www.acepokersolutions.com/free-poker-books/

Heh you're the author?

Thanks for the shameless plug, I entered my email. I'll definitely check it out!

Supmargy · Oct 4, 2017

Supmargy said:
Heh you're the author?

Thanks for the shameless plug, I entered my email. I'll definitely check it out!

Well I just realised you started this thread, so it's not a shameless plug at all. Whoops my bad.

Anyway, at page 20 already.

ps: for some reason i couldn't edit my post, which is why i quoted myself...

Alucard · Oct 5, 2017

John A said:
On the whole section called, blind defense. You entered your email on this page?

http://www.acepokersolutions.com/free-poker-books/

yeah I entered it multiple times. Then something would start loading but when I check my mail, there's nothing.
Figaroo gave me a copy somehow. I'll read & post questions later.

BTW does it make sense to bet the flop on a board like this? I feel by betting the flop we are only trying to make worse hands fold.

pokerstars - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
SB: 320.6 BB (VPIP: 28.00, PFR: 28.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)
BB: 165 BB (VPIP: 13.33, PFR: 6.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 15)
UTG: 97.6 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
Hero (MP): 322.4 BB
CO: 119 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Qc Ah
fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, fold, fold

Flop : (7.4 BB, 2 players) Ad 9c 9d
Hero bets 5 BB, fold

Hero wins 7 BB

Figaroo2 · Oct 5, 2017

Its a clear 2 streets of value hand for me.
bet flop to get calls from worse aces and TT JJ which will probably call once. If you get called on the flop against decent players I'd normally check turn and bet the river. It depends how fishy they are. If they are bad I'd consider betting all 3 streets. Fish will call down with as bad as A2

Figaroo2 · Oct 5, 2017

Standard fold?
Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players

SB: $9.70 (97 bb)
Hero (BB): $10.50 (105 bb)
MP1: $18.95 (189.5 bb)
MP2: $8 (80 bb)
MP3: $10.54 (105.4 bb)
CO: $5.57 (55.7 bb)
BTN: $12.66 (126.6 bb)VPIP: 31, PFR: 13, 3B: 5, AF: 1.7, Hands: 176 Sticky fish, doesn't fold to 3bets or cbets but low WTSD at 17%

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q

Q

4 folds, BTN raises to $0.35, SB folds, Hero raises to $1.10, BTN calls $0.75

Flop: ($2.25) 5

8

J

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.68, BTN calls $1.68

Turn: ($5.61) 9

(2 players)
Hero bets $2.80, BTN calls $2.80

River: ($11.21) 7

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $7.08 and is all-in, Hero folds

Results: $11.21 pot ($0.56 rake)
Final Board: 5

8

J

9

7

Hero mucked Q

Q

and lost (-$5.58 net)
BTN mucked and won $10.65 ($5.07 net)

Figaroo2 · Oct 7, 2017

Pacific, $0.15/$0.30 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $30 (100 bb)VPIP: 17, PFR: 13, 3B: 6, AF: 3.2, Hands: 1081 decent reg
Hero (BB): $30.72 (102.4 bb)
UTG+1: $39.62 (132.1 bb)
UTG+2: $30 (100 bb)
MP1: $35.04 (116.8 bb)
MP2: $36.62 (122.1 bb)
MP3: $25.99 (86.6 bb)
CO: $57.71 (192.4 bb)
BTN: $37.98 (126.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9

9

7 folds, SB raises to $0.90, Hero calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.80) 2

9

J

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.35, SB raises to $4.05, Hero calls $2.70

Turn: ($9.90) 7

(2 players)
SB bets $7.38, Hero raises to $25.77 and is all-in, SB folds

Results: $24.66 pot ($1.23 rake)
Final Board: 2

9

J

7

SB mucked and lost (-$12.33 net)
Hero mucked 9

9

and won $23.43 ($11.10 net)
Shove ok? I felt like if I called this $7 bet I'm pretty committed anyway so may as well just Gii.

Alucard · Oct 8, 2017

Since the BBs & SBs 3bet ranges are somewhat wide, could you slow play aces, kings against them profitably? Or is it player dependant at all times?

Here's a situation I ran into to trying to slow play.

PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 139.6 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
SB: 246 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 2)
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
UTG: 101.4 BB (VPIP: 14.46, PFR: 8.43, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 84)
MP: 101.2 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 100.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)
Hero (CO): 258.4 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has As Ac
fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, BB raises to 9 BB, Hero calls 6 BB

Flop : (18.4 BB, 2 players) Ks 7s Kc
BB checks, Hero bets 9 BB, BB calls 9 BB

Turn : (36.4 BB, 2 players) 3d
BB checks, Hero bets 25 BB, BB calls 25 BB

River : (86.4 BB, 2 players) 7c
BB bets 57 BB and is all-in, ??

Figaroo2 · Oct 8, 2017

I would suggest you just always 4bet your aces. As you move up you need to 4bet your premiums to balance your 4bet bluffs. If you slow play there are always going to be some runouts that can make getting the money in difficult, like 4 cards to a flush or straight or like here with the two kings.

Alucard · Oct 8, 2017

Since I've moved up to 5NL at stars I've been trying the zoom tables. Specially due to the fact that there are no likely fish at all to find at regular tables.
And I see that there's some money to be made at zoom tables if you are very well disciplined.

* Some of my leaks as I see is that I call too much knowing that I am beat. Specially with premium hands.
* The other is over bluffing. I feel I shouldn't play more than 40-50BBs when bluffing because it's sometimes not worth it. You barrel once to win a small pot. But then it goes to the turn & you barrel again & goes to the river & you barrel again to be called by a station with a medium pair. So you loose almost your entire stack where you could've saved around 80-90 Bigs easily.
* The other one & very much related to the previous is, not knowing when to barrel flop & turn when you 3 bet from the blinds OOP & the V calls.
I've taken your advice into consideration & stared 3betting & folding more than flatting from SB john & it has worked really good but still I struggle in situations like this.

If anyone can give me some advice on these things I'd be very thankful.
It sometimes get super frustrating when you grind for more than an hour winning around 2-3 buyins then suddenly these mistakes pops up & you end up break even & loosing. So the winner seems to be the house. lol

Here's my graph so far at 5NL zoom 6max. I won't continue zoom on other sites just stars due to the fact I told earlier.

Rational Madman · Oct 8, 2017

Alucard said:
Since I've moved up to 5NL at stars I've been trying the zoom tables. Specially due to the fact that there are no likely fish at all to find at regular tables.
And I see that there's some money to be made at zoom tables if you are very well disciplined.

* Some of my leaks as I see is that I call too much knowing that I am beat. Specially with premium hands.
* The other is over bluffing. I feel I shouldn't play more than 40-50BBs when bluffing because it's sometimes not worth it. You barrel once to win a small pot. But then it goes to the turn & you barrel again & goes to the river & you barrel again to be called by a station with a medium pair. So you loose almost your entire stack where you could've saved around 80-90 Bigs easily.
* The other one & very much related to the previous is, not knowing when to barrel flop & turn when you 3 bet from the blinds OOP & the V calls.
I've taken your advice into consideration & stared 3betting & folding more than flatting from SB john & it has worked really good but still I struggle in situations like this.

If anyone can give me some advice on these things I'd be very thankful.
It sometimes get super frustrating when you grind for more than an hour winning around 2-3 buyins then suddenly these mistakes pops up & you end up break even & loosing. So the winner seems to be the house. lol

Here's my graph so far at 5NL zoom 6max. I won't continue zoom on other sites just stars due to the fact I told earlier.

What is the yellow meaning?

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