Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

Figaroo2 · Feb 10, 2014

Blimey someone folded to a 4 bet!!

I'm practicing 4 bet or fold, no calling 3 bets oop
I'm finding nearly all are 5 bet jamming at micro, although this changes at 25nl where i'm picking up a lot more folds.
Here are two examples

Firstly here we are with K10 suited oop against a villian 3betting 7.7% which is high enough to give 4 bet bluffing a decent chance is it not.

Pacific, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
Hero (SB): $1.14 (57 bb)
BB: $1.78 (89 bb) 25/24/4/7.7
MP: $3.25 (162.5 bb)
CO: $1.49 (74.5 bb)
BTN: $1.90 (95 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Kh Th
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.06, BB raises to $0.16, Hero raises to $0.48, BB folds

Results: $0.32 pot
Hero mucked Kh Th and won $0.32 ($0.16 net)

Pacific, $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Hero (BTN): $4.74 (118.5 bb)
SB: $4.11 (102.8 bb) only 27 hands but 12/8/.4/10
BB: $4.03 (100.8 bb)
UTG: $2.04 (51 bb)
MP: $9.77 (244.2 bb)
CO: $4.01 (100.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with As 4h (easy fold if he jams)
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.10, SB raises to $0.32, BB folds, Hero raises to $1, SB folds

Results: $0.68 pot
Hero mucked As 4h and won $0.68 ($0.36 net)

sidgucci · Feb 10, 2014

John A said:
Chapter 8: 4-betting

I want to start with the 4-bet bluffing range on page 87. As I say in the book, I'm not a big fan of 4-betting with suited connectors, but in some spots, just about any two will be ok. There's some recommended hands there that have showdown value in case you're called. In most cases at micro and small stakes in particular, your opponents will fold or jam. In some better small stakes games and into mid, you're going to get some calls. So this range is a good one to practice with in general.

A lot of the games at 100nl for example, play like 600nl+ a few years ago. You're going to want to have a solid 4-bet strategy to maximize value at the table.

As I work to improve as a player, this was an area of my game that was non-existent. When I analyzed my game using LeakBuster, I was informed that my 4-Bet range was too low from the button and cut-off positions and Early Positions. Obviously, I was the type of player that reluctantly re-raised even my stronger hand holdings.

However, when I started to apply your lessons using the 4-Bet Value Range from the various positions, I have a much better understanding of the game dynamics.

The concept of applying a 4-Bet Bluffing range from Early Position and the Big Blind against the opponents that have a wider 3-Betting range is so valuable. It really helps with defending my opening raise from early position and protecting my big blind and possibly pushing my opponents off a better starting hand.

Aside from knowing what hand range to utilize in different positions, another important aspect was just getting a better understanding of the appropriate bet sizing.

All of these 4-Bet lessons have, once again, added a considerable amount of confidence to my game.

I have created the necessary filters within HoldemManager2 and run reports to analyze and manage my 4B from EP and 4B opportunities from the big blind, cut-off and button.

Great stuff, John!

Sneaky Feet · Feb 10, 2014

John you mention that you aren't a fan of using suited connectors to 4 bet with. Does this depend at all on how the cards show in previous flops? It seems that some games flop a higher percentage of face cards where others flop higher percentages of straight draws.

As for practicing my 4 betting range, I'm trying to but I'm finding that with the increased 3 betting, no one even wants to play me when I bet anymore lol. So obviously 3 betting is working really well!

Sneaky Feet · Feb 11, 2014

I was able to find one hand where I was able to use a 4 bet strategy. I think I might have been a little lucky on this one

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

SB ($1.82)
BB ($1.16)
UTG ($1.99)
UTG+1 ($2.34)
MP1 ($1.83)
MP2 ($1.58)
MP3 ($5.21)
Hero (CO) ($1.55)
Button ($1.83)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K

, A

5 folds, Hero raises to $0.08, 1 fold, SB calls $0.07, BB raises to $0.22, Hero raises to $0.36, 1 fold, BB calls $0.14

Flop: ($0.80) 9

, A

, 9

(2 players)
BB bets $0.38, Hero raises to $0.76, BB raises to $0.80 (All-In), Hero calls $0.04

Turn: ($2.40) 10

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($2.40) 8

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $2.40 | Rake: $0.08

Results below:

BB had Q

, A

(flush, Ace high).
Hero had K

, A

(flush, Ace high).
Outcome: Hero won $2.32

sidgucci · Feb 11, 2014

Good morning, John and CardsChat community!

Working on my 4Betting Bluffing Range and getting ready to watch the WPT Final Table livestream that is taking place in Florida.

I have a question with regards to all of the free online material as it relates to poker strategy. A lot of this free material being offered is really geared towards microstake players.

Although, I have been playing for several years, I personally find this free material to be advanced thinking and not Poker Basic 101. My question is, how much more advanced will these poker lessons take us if this free material is considered the groundwork or foundation?

Once gaining a firm grasp, will this foundation be enough to get out of the micros and start moving up in stakes? I understand that the game has changed over the years and that it will continue to change and there will be new styles to adapt to and/or exploit. Thoughts/opinions?

John A · Feb 11, 2014

Figaroo2 said:
I'm practicing 4 bet or fold, no calling 3 bets oop
I'm finding nearly all are 5 bet jamming at micro, although this changes at 25nl where i'm picking up a lot more folds.
Here are two examples

Firstly here we are with K10 suited oop against a villian 3betting 7.7% which is high enough to give 4 bet bluffing a decent chance is it not.

Pacific, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
Hero (SB): $1.14 (57 bb)
BB: $1.78 (89 bb) 25/24/4/7.7
MP: $3.25 (162.5 bb)
CO: $1.49 (74.5 bb)
BTN: $1.90 (95 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Kh Th
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.06, BB raises to $0.16, Hero raises to $0.48, BB folds

Results: $0.32 pot
Hero mucked Kh Th and won $0.32 ($0.16 net)

Pacific, $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Hero (BTN): $4.74 (118.5 bb)
SB: $4.11 (102.8 bb) only 27 hands but 12/8/.4/10
BB: $4.03 (100.8 bb)
UTG: $2.04 (51 bb)
MP: $9.77 (244.2 bb)
CO: $4.01 (100.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with As 4h (easy fold if he jams)
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.10, SB raises to $0.32, BB folds, Hero raises to $1, SB folds

Results: $0.68 pot
Hero mucked As 4h and won $0.68 ($0.36 net)

Yeah, you're not going to get a lot of 4-bet calls at these stakes. But any ways, yes, this spot is good and ideal. Especially because a lot of micro players tend to 3-bet from the blinds a little too much since they're not really sure what to do with their medium strength hands, so their range becomes very depolarized in these spots.

John A · Feb 11, 2014

sidgucci said:
As I work to improve as a player, this was an area of my game that was non-existent. When I analyzed my game using LeakBuster, I was informed that my 4-Bet range was too low from the button and cut-off positions and Early Positions. Obviously, I was the type of player that reluctantly re-raised even my stronger hand holdings.

However, when I started to apply your lessons using the 4-Bet Value Range from the various positions, I have a much better understanding of the game dynamics.

The concept of applying a 4-Bet Bluffing range from Early Position and the Big Blind against the opponents that have a wider 3-Betting range is so valuable. It really helps with defending my opening raise from early position and protecting my big blind and possibly pushing my opponents off a better starting hand.

Aside from knowing what hand range to utilize in different positions, another important aspect was just getting a better understanding of the appropriate bet sizing.

All of these 4-Bet lessons have, once again, added a considerable amount of confidence to my game.

I have created the necessary filters within HoldemManager2 and run reports to analyze and manage my 4B from EP and 4B opportunities from the big blind, cut-off and button.

Great stuff, John!

Awesome. Glad you're using it. Just don't over do it.

Sometimes learning new concepts, we want to really push the testing and see what we can get away with. Since you have leak buster, just keep using it to make sure you're not 4-betting too much.

John A · Feb 11, 2014

Sneaky Feet said:
John you mention that you aren't a fan of using suited connectors to 4 bet with. Does this depend at all on how the cards show in previous flops? It seems that some games flop a higher percentage of face cards where others flop higher percentages of straight draws.

As for practicing my 4 betting range, I'm trying to but I'm finding that with the increased 3 betting, no one even wants to play me when I bet anymore lol. So obviously 3 betting is working really well!

I'm honestly not sure what you mean by some games flop high %, etc...

Really, at micro stakes games, 4-betting with SC's and things is probably ok in most spots since like I said in a couple of posts above, typically you'll get a jam or a fold. At some higher small stakes and mid stakes games, you'll get more 4-bet flatting with a lot of hands. So if you 4-bet with SC's and then flop a pair, you're going to be in a lot of really weird spots post flop. It's much better if you 4-bet with K5s or something, because if you lead at the flop when you hit top pair and get jammed on, you'll be ahead a much higher % of the time when you call.

Glad the 3-betting is working well for you. Again, just don't over do it.

John A · Feb 11, 2014

Sneaky Feet said:
I was able to find one hand where I was able to use a 4 bet strategy. I think I might have been a little lucky on this one

Pretty standard, but I like the small 4-bet to keep his weaker range in. Bad run out though.

A9ofHearts · Feb 11, 2014

John A said:
Pretty standard, but I like the small 4-bet to keep his weaker range in. Bad run out though.

I think you miss read it. Hero won this hand.

John A · Feb 11, 2014

sidgucci said:
Good morning, John and CardsChat community!

Working on my 4Betting Bluffing Range and getting ready to watch the WPT Final Table livestream that is taking place in Florida.

I have a question with regards to all of the free online material as it relates to poker strategy. A lot of this free material being offered is really geared towards microstake players.

Although, I have been playing for several years, I personally find this free material to be advanced thinking and not Poker Basic 101. My question is, how much more advanced will these poker lessons take us if this free material is considered the groundwork or foundation?

Once gaining a firm grasp, will this foundation be enough to get out of the micros and start moving up in stakes? I understand that the game has changed over the years and that it will continue to change and there will be new styles to adapt to and/or exploit. Thoughts/opinions?

If you're referring specifically to Polished Poker as free material, this content will make you a winning micro and small stakes players. I think I say somewhere, it's primarily aimed at up to 200NL online players. So live that can translate easily into the 5/10 NL games.

Volume I is just once piece of what we're covering. There's more concepts to build on. I hope the workbook solidifies the Vol I content though, and then Vol III I'm planning on going into a lot of common leak areas.

Most free content is free for a reason though. It's generally not that great, sometimes even bad. I could easily sell Polished Poker for a decent amount of money. I write this kind of content for a specific purpose. It makes me a better player and teacher, it exposes more people to the software and content we create, and it establishes a long term relationship with cardschat. A lot of new people have come here because of the content, and cardschat let's me discuss our products. So it's an easy win/win for everyone, and hopefully you.

John A · Feb 11, 2014

A9ofHearts said:
I think you miss read it. Hero won this hand.

Ks... yeah, just saw Qs... thanx.

Sneaky Feet · Feb 11, 2014

John at the moment I'm reading a book by another author as well. I'm not going to out him but I will say the book is green and it's little.

The author's preflop betting strategy seems counter productive to me. He suggests that when in bb/sb and you have a playable hand to bet small to get more people in on the hand while recommending to bet larger in later positions. As mentioned this seems counter productive to me because, from what I understand, a good starting hand preflop can quickly diminish in value post flop.

Any thoughts?

A9ofHearts · Feb 11, 2014

John A said:
Ks... yeah, just saw Qs... thanx.

np

sidgucci · Feb 11, 2014

John A said:
If you're referring specifically to Polished Poker as free material, this content will make you a winning micro and small stakes players. I think I say somewhere, it's primarily aimed at up to 200NL online players. So live that can translate easily into the 5/10 NL games.

I did a poor job of communicating and my comment was intended to reflect ALL of the free online poker lessons/advice that can be discovered online. Of course, it's scattered and takes a considerable amount of time to collect this information and organize to try and make sense of it all.

Volume I is just once piece of what we're covering. There's more concepts to build on. I hope the workbook solidifies the Vol I content though, and then Vol III I'm planning on going into a lot of common leak areas.

I can sincerely appreciate your hard work and willingness to share this knowledge with the poker community.

Most free content is free for a reason though. It's generally not that great, sometimes even bad. I could easily sell Polished Poker for a decent amount of money.

AGREE

I write this kind of content for a specific purpose. It makes me a better player and teacher, it exposes more people to the software and content we create, and it establishes a long term relationship with cardschat. A lot of new people have come here because of the content, and cardschat let's me discuss our products. So it's an easy win/win for everyone, and hopefully you.

As you know, I am extremely grateful and a big fan and really appreciate your contribution. I was trying to gauge just how much poker theory needs to be reviewed and understood so that I won't find myself at the table feeling like a fish and being exploited. This entire process has been a real eye opener in terms of the hard work and study that is required to be a solid competitor. With hard work and dedication off the felt, I hope it will lead to several MTT Final Tables and profitable cash game sessions.

John A · Feb 11, 2014

Sneaky Feet said:
John at the moment I'm reading a book by another author as well. I'm not going to out him but I will say the book is green and it's little.

The author's preflop betting strategy seems counter productive to me. He suggests that when in bb/sb and you have a playable hand to bet small to get more people in on the hand while recommending to bet larger in later positions. As mentioned this seems counter productive to me because, from what I understand, a good starting hand preflop can quickly diminish in value post flop.

Any thoughts?

Mr. Gordon. Is he still playing? Just curious.

In general there's two pre-flop strategies / schools of thought. Open raise smaller OOP, and more IP. Getting more money into the pot when you have position. Minimize investment OOP.

The other of course being the opposite. Open more OOP, trying to dissuade callers from enter that have position on you, and open less in position, so you can open more hands.

As far as getting more people in the hand, etc... I mean, I don't know if he's talking about specific scenarios or not. As far as pre-flop strategy, those are the general schools of thought. Personally I don't use either though. But that's just how I roll.

Sneaky Feet · Feb 12, 2014

John A said:
Mr. Gordon. Is he still playing? Just curious.

In general there's two pre-flop strategies / schools of thought. Open raise smaller OOP, and more IP. Getting more money into the pot when you have position. Minimize investment OOP.

The other of course being the opposite. Open more OOP, trying to dissuade callers from enter that have position on you, and open less in position, so you can open more hands.

As far as getting more people in the hand, etc... I mean, I don't know if he's talking about specific scenarios or not. As far as pre-flop strategy, those are the general schools of thought. Personally I don't use either though. But that's just how I roll.

Thanks for your input. I'm not sure if he's still playing or not. To be honest the only reason I bought his book was because he seemed to have more than one in the series so I figured it would be a good place to start. Btw I had bought the book prior to finding cardschat. I guess I can use it now to spot tendencies in opponents..... Or as another paper weight lol

The way that your explaining betting ranges, starting hands, 3 bets, 4 bets etc. makes far more sense to me. Keep your opponent guessing as to what you're sitting on and you'll be much further ahead.

Sneaky Feet · Feb 12, 2014

I though I would post this as it seemed very timely to the chapter we're on. I read this in the learning poker forum this morning. It was written by another very active member. Shhh don't tell anyone I posted this!

"You don't need to see showdown to get some idea of your opponents range, you already have some info based how many hands you think he is playing, on his position and how the hand pans out. Very simple example: when a player who you don't assume to be a fish 4bets pre flop you can massively narrow his likely range to QQ+,AK. You've done that without seeing any showdown. That is a simple example...."

Sneaky Feet · Feb 12, 2014

I though I would post this as it seemed very timely to the chapter we're on. I read this in the learning poker forum this morning. It was written by another very active member. Shhh don't tell anyone I posted this!

"You don't need to see showdown to get some idea of your opponents range, you already have some info based how many hands you think he is playing, on his position and how the hand pans out. Very simple example: when a player who you don't assume to be a fish 4bets pre flop you can massively narrow his likely range to QQ+,AK. You've done that without seeing any showdown. That is a simple example...."

John A · Feb 12, 2014

sidgucci said:
As you know, I am extremely grateful and a big fan and really appreciate your contribution. I was trying to gauge just how much poker theory needs to be reviewed and understood so that I won't find myself at the table feeling like a fish and being exploited. This entire process has been a real eye opener in terms of the hard work and study that is required to be a solid competitor. With hard work and dedication off the felt, I hope it will lead to several MTT Final Tables and profitable cash game sessions.

Cool... yes, I appreciate your support very much. It sounds like you're making good progress with your game, and it's always fun to hear how people are improving.

I wish you the best.

John A · Feb 12, 2014

Sneaky Feet said:
Thanks for your input. I'm not sure if he's still playing or not. To be honest the only reason I bought his book was because he seemed to have more than one in the series so I figured it would be a good place to start. Btw I had bought the book prior to finding cardschat. I guess I can use it now to spot tendencies in opponents..... Or as another paper weight lol

The way that your explaining betting ranges, starting hands, 3 bets, 4 bets etc. makes far more sense to me. Keep your opponent guessing as to what you're sitting on and you'll be much further ahead.

Well, Phil always seemed like a nice guy. I just haven't seen him around, and not sure if he's still with it or not.

Always keep them guessing... even the women.

John A · Feb 12, 2014

Sneaky Feet said:
I though I would post this as it seemed very timely to the chapter we're on. I read this in the learning poker forum this morning. It was written by another very active member. Shhh don't tell anyone I posted this!

"You don't need to see showdown to get some idea of your opponents range, you already have some info based how many hands you think he is playing, on his position and how the hand pans out. Very simple example: when a player who you don't assume to be a fish 4bets pre flop you can massively narrow his likely range to QQ+,AK. You've done that without seeing any showdown. That is a simple example...."

You can narrow it from there to start as their value range. What you don't know is their bluffing frequency of course. Most good players will understand the positional dynamics though, and be able to gauge how much of their range is a bluff.

Sneaky Feet · Feb 12, 2014

John A said:
You can narrow it from there to start as their value range. What you don't know is their bluffing frequency of course. Most good players will understand the positional dynamics though, and be able to gauge how much of their range is a bluff.

I'm not sure I quite understand what you're saying about being able to gauge your opponents bluff range. If one is to 4-bet approximately 4% of the time regardless of position, how does one put the opponent on a bluff range?

By calling or re-raising and playing the hand out?

sidgucci · Feb 12, 2014

Sneaky Feet said:
I'm not sure I quite understand what you're saying about being able to gauge your opponents bluff range. If one is to 4-bet approximately 4% of the time regardless of position, how does one put the opponent on a bluff range?

By calling or re-raising and playing the hand out?

If your opponent is 4-betting 4% of the time overall, you can safely fold most hands and assume there is no 4-bet bluffing range until proven otherwise.

Sneaky Feet · Feb 12, 2014

sidgucci said:
If your opponent is 4-betting 4% of the time overall, you can safely fold most hands and assume there is no 4-bet bluffing range until proven otherwise.

Awesome thanks Sidgucci.

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