It always depends on opponent, but a lot of times I'd bet just to protect my equity. I'm not expecting better to fold out on that board very often, and I don't want to be stuck facing a large river bet with A high and have to make a call down. I'm not saying there wont be times against certain opponents that it would make sense, but in general it's best to push out a split and protect your slim equity.
General question... I'm just curious what your guys thoughts are about GTO play. I know it's been a big buzz word for the past 2 years, and I'm just curious how you think it fits into the average micro and small stakes players games.
John A said:
makes sense. so you regularly float vs unknowns with AK on low boards in 3b pots? Does it make a difference if you hold AJ or AQ instead? and does having backdoor draws have a big impact on your decision to float?
this is something i'm a little unsure about right now. it all depends on how often my opponents are exploiting me for any imbalances in my game. i find that although i fold to 3bets slightly more often than GTO, the population tendency in 10nl zoom seems to be to only 3bet strong hands (although there are exceptions with some of the regs) so i'm not really being exploited.
but there are some instances where i'm really not sure whether GTO is better or not. like i checked on PT4 and my fold to flop Cbet is 58% and fold to turn cbet is 27%. this doesn't seem GTO but i'm wondering whether it's a leak at 10nl or not since leakbuster hasn't actually picked up on it.
John A said:
I think it's getting more and more popular these days, especially starting from 50NL (or even at 25NL Zoom) lots of people already have an idea about that stuff (although my "observations"/opinion might be a little biased because thats the only thing I'm constantly working on/thinking about/obsessed with these days 🙁). On the other hand, I've already seen 5NL players talking about (and even using) PokerSnowie so...yea, the end for Holdem is near 🙂
mottotom27 said:
John hasn't yet responded to this, so I will give my 2 cents.
First of all, there is so much more to GTO "approach" than just looking at some parameters, taken from simple risk:reward equations, and trying to instantly increase/decrease various things in your game to make them look more "correct". Sure, those are important guidelines but without taking into consideration other things such as: the value of position on various boards, constructing ranges, how different types of distributions interact with each other and how to play them on each street, betsizing (which is probably the most complicated concept in poker, AFAIK), equity thresholds, the "value" of each hand in a distribution etc...(I could go on forever with this), it won't make any "difference"/end up good. Like: ok, you start defending an appropriate amount of times to an OOP 3bet, but if your defending range is not ready to play "good" on most common boards (it simply sucks), you're just throwing away your money. For example: defending with PPs to only flop a set - one does not have to be great in poker theory to figure out that something is not "right" with that kind of strategy (it might be good exploitatively if the 3bettor is a total nit who will always pay you off, but thats not the point).
So, like you said, if the general tendency at your limit is to 3bet only top 3% of hands, than your default strategy against unknowns should be to play accordingly (if the population is 3betting so tight than they are not "exploiting" you whatsoever - in fact, you are exploiting them by playing perfectly eg: by folding).
IMO throwing away all the things you already know (or think you know) about poker and just rebuilding your understanding of the game completely from scratch while also being ready to throw away lots of popular bs/common misconceptions along the way, is the best way to incorporate those theory concepts into the game.
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1st time I managed to play cash in 2 weeks cos of dodgy internet. Just wondering about 2 AA hands that went to River Do I value bet and fold to raise or better to check call.
Hand 1 - NO stats only 1 hand on villain
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
SB: $11.75 (117.5 bb)
Hero (BB): $19.86 (198.6 bb)
UTG: $12.97 (129.7 bb)
MP: $15.05 (150.5 bb)
CO: $39.11 (391.1 bb)
BTN: $17.58 (175.8 bb)
Preflop: Hero is BB with A
A
UTG raises to $0.20, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.90, UTG calls $0.70
Flop: ($1.85) 6
2
7
(2 players)
Hero bets $1.20, UTG calls $1.20
Turn: ($4.25) 8
(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks
River: ($4.25) Q
(2 players)
Hand 2 NO Stats on villain
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
SB: $13.37 (133.7 bb)
BB: $19.97 (199.7 bb)
UTG: $9 (90 bb)
MP: $11.37 (113.7 bb)
Hero (CO): $38.98 (389.8 bb)
BTN: $11.62 (116.2 bb)
Preflop: Hero is CO with A
A
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BTN folds, SB calls $0.25, BB folds
Flop: ($0.70) K
9
4
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.60, SB calls $0.60
Turn: ($1.90) J
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks
River: ($1.90) 3
(2 players)
SB checks,
Hand 1 - NO stats only 1 hand on villain
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
SB: $11.75 (117.5 bb)
Hero (BB): $19.86 (198.6 bb)
UTG: $12.97 (129.7 bb)
MP: $15.05 (150.5 bb)
CO: $39.11 (391.1 bb)
BTN: $17.58 (175.8 bb)
Preflop: Hero is BB with A
UTG raises to $0.20, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.90, UTG calls $0.70
Flop: ($1.85) 6
Hero bets $1.20, UTG calls $1.20
Turn: ($4.25) 8
Hero checks, UTG checks
River: ($4.25) Q
Hand 2 NO Stats on villain
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
SB: $13.37 (133.7 bb)
BB: $19.97 (199.7 bb)
UTG: $9 (90 bb)
MP: $11.37 (113.7 bb)
Hero (CO): $38.98 (389.8 bb)
BTN: $11.62 (116.2 bb)
Preflop: Hero is CO with A
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BTN folds, SB calls $0.25, BB folds
Flop: ($0.70) K
SB checks, Hero bets $0.60, SB calls $0.60
Turn: ($1.90) J
SB checks, Hero checks
River: ($1.90) 3
SB checks,
Fknife said:
Hehe... well, to begin with PokerSnowie doesn't offer the best GTO. It has a lot of flaws in it's ranges / logic. But outside of that, are you considering how often you are giving up value by checking a % of your range because you're trying to do something assuming your opponent is going to be balancing and playing back with the correct range nearly all of the time? This is where I think a lot of micro and small stakes players really miss the whole point. Your opponents are not playing anywhere near perfect strategy, so why in the world are you focusing so much on balancing against them and giving up equity?
I mean, I can't tell you how often I've coached someone at 25 or 50nl on pokerstars and watched a reg check/call with a small pair on an overly coordinated board. Then I have my student trying to talk to me about checking frequencies and I have to slap my forehead.
On a side note... any resources you guys would recommend to be added?
http://www.acepokersolutions.com/pokerstrategy/
http://www.acepokersolutions.com/pokerstrategy/
Sure but it's something and it just shows in which direction online poker is going to. I heard about 500NL Zoom players breaking even with Snowie's advice but when you see players at the very lowest stakes talking about it - it's just not funny anymore. There is also GTO RangeBuilder - I haven't tested it or anything but I enjoy reading their blog and watching their videos. Oh and don't forget about most of the popular training sites constantly blabbing and producing content about GTO.John A said:
John A said:
1. I'm not much of a player tbh so making money/grinding/missing value are the least important things I could care about (at least for now). I'm just here mostly because I treat poker as an intellectual challenge AND I've always wanted to learn about game theory but I was too lazy to do so. Now I have a good reason and the motivation! 🙂
2. I try not to worry about things I can't control. Like: can you tell me what range will a specific villain call with when you 3bet him? Or what range will somebody open UTG with? You can't control it...Sure, you can look at some stats, see that he's opening x% of hands and make some logical assumptions such as: he is more likely to open top x% not bottom x% of the hands but still you don't know it for sure among a lot of other things (eg: how he constructs the bottom of his range although...does it really matter? 🙂) AND it all goes to sh*t if suddenly a 10/8 guy opens UTG, barrels 3 streets and shows up with 69o.
So the best you can do is make some assumptions based on eg: population tendencies, common sense and/or other factors and work from there. The assumption that villain is also playing GTO makes things "easier" because by definition one cannot gain anything by deviating from GTO so if I manage to figure something out based on that assumption...
Thats the first thing. The second thing is that...well nobody really knows "The" GTO solution (for now), those are all approximations filled with a level of randomness (unless you constantly have random.org opened, it's hard to execute all the actions with appropriate frequencies 🙂), common sense and various shortcuts so nobody really learns/works on GTO to actually always play GTO. It's more about understanding "The Bigger Picture" and being able to find weaknesses in others' strategies (like: it might be GTO for SB to 3bet 30% of BTN's opens which would require BTN to defend a huge chunk of his range and therefore forcing him to tighten up a lot, which of course goes against a common conception of loosening up in late positions. Yet, people still open a lot, even 70%+, from the BTN. Why is that? 🙂)
3. What's your approach to teaching GTO as a coach? I know lots of people (me included...) use (...used) Janda's ideas/content but there is also a group of people (as always) who disagree with him and his approach. They suggest, I quote: "MoP toy games + bruteforce" whatever that means - I think they just mean grinding a lot of CREV trees 🙁 Tipton also has some good concent regarding GTO...What's your approach? If I was to sign up for a coaching with you and was only interested in that kind of stuff, where would we begin?
John A said:
Yeah, it's a hard and painful life trying to perfectly defend all the "required" combos 🙁
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John A said:
Nice library🙂
although I'm stuck in a loop can never resist a challenge 🙄
http://www.acepokersolutions.com/pokerstrategy/Poker-Strategy-Tommy_Angelo_tilt.php
Maybe you need to change one of the links for
ICM Trainer (FREE) Maybe its the full version but its in German 😱
Light version is
http://www.pokerstrategy.com/poker-tools/icm-trainer-light/
ICM Trainer (FREE) Maybe its the full version but its in German 😱
Light version is
http://www.pokerstrategy.com/poker-tools/icm-trainer-light/
Fknife said:
It's been going this way for a long time actually. We started talking about balancing and game theory many years ago. People are becoming obsessed with it now though because of 2 reasons. 1) People who have been successful are talking about it- and I've been playing online a long time now and I've watched how the poker lemmings work. 2) The games are getting tougher so people believe this will give them an edge.
There's actually more products than the ones you mentioned, but a lot of them charge a ton. The interesting thing to me is, it really doesn't take much to build one of these from an equity calc. I have no idea how developers are justifying the huge price tags they have on these. I was looking at this a couple of years ago and concluded that there's no way after the initial rush occurs that the prices could sustain themselves. Someone is eventually going to build a free product because it's not that development intensive.
You're kind of making the case against GTO here though. I know you're saying that most of the time they'll do X, so you just need to balance properly. But the problem is, very few people do X (the correct play) consistently. So if you're playing to mentally get yourself off, then have fun with it. 🙂 I just play for money, and I personally don't care about anything else because there's tons of other more mentally challenging things to do where I won't make money. I use poker for it's primary intended purposes.
Exactly. But I've seen guys call in spots they shouldn't because "I can get exploited if I always fold in this spot". I always get a good laugh out of that one. I've coached so many winning and good players over the years and I hear how they talk about the game. People can't track how often someone is doing X with Y, even at high stakes.
I don't teach GTO play. I teach exploitative play and some balancing concepts to better players. But I talk about purely from range vs. range and equity distribution across that range. GTO is something that is going to burn away at some point because even theoretically if the top players could play GTO perfectly, they'll eventually realize they aren't computers, and that poker is still a game about people. Passing money back and forth isn't too much fun, so you have to learn how to psychologically alter your opponents lines and take them off their games. Even the most stoic of players have psychological flaws, and that's always where the biggest exploitative part of this game will be won because in the end we're human and not computers. 🙂
And I'm not saying don't learn GTO or I'm anti-GTO. I just think people are fundamentally misunderstanding the application, purpose and necessity.
I like Splitsuits example of GTO
http://www.splitsuit.com/should-i-play-gto-poker
GTO is short for Game Theory Optimal and I think the easiest way to explain GTO is with a game of chicken. You have 2 cars driving at each other and the one that swerves loses. So what’s the optimal GTO Strategy for this game? Is it to always go straight? Is it to always go left, always go right, to balance it 1/3 a piece, or something else?The actual optimal way to play chicken is to take your steering wheel off, hold it out the window, and force your opponent to do something. By doing this you cant do anything that gets exploited; your opponent has to do react to this information. In the longrun the only thing he can do here is swerve, because by going straight he’ll always die.😱
http://www.splitsuit.com/should-i-play-gto-poker
GTO is short for Game Theory Optimal and I think the easiest way to explain GTO is with a game of chicken. You have 2 cars driving at each other and the one that swerves loses. So what’s the optimal GTO Strategy for this game? Is it to always go straight? Is it to always go left, always go right, to balance it 1/3 a piece, or something else?The actual optimal way to play chicken is to take your steering wheel off, hold it out the window, and force your opponent to do something. By doing this you cant do anything that gets exploited; your opponent has to do react to this information. In the longrun the only thing he can do here is swerve, because by going straight he’ll always die.😱
River situation v a Whale. Do we give him a chance to bluff?
Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players
SB: $37.35 (149.4 bb)
BB: $8.95 (35.8 bb)
Hero (UTG+2): $26.01 (104 bb)
MP1: $25.82 (103.3 bb)
MP2: $24.75 (99 bb)
MP3: $23.51 (94 bb) 69/2/25 in 68 hands
CO: $27.68 (110.7 bb)
BTN: $36.53 (146.1 bb)
Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K:diamond: A:diamond:
Hero raises to $0.75, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.75, 4 folds
Flop: ($1.85) 4:heart: 7:spade: A:spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets $0.75, Hero raises to $2.38, MP3 calls $1.63
Looking back at this I have no idea why I'm simply not betting here....(self slap) a CR just folds out something that might call a couple of streets.
Turn: ($6.61) A:heart: (2 players)
Hero bets $4.73, MP3 calls $4.73
River: ($16.07) 2:club: (2 players)
OK because he is so wide here i'm struggling to put him on a range. The busted flush draw is there or he is simply slow playing a set. The 2nd ace coming out reduces his Ax hands. If we bet we fold out his missed flush draw....Do we give him a chance to bluff here? Do we call if he shoves?
Hero checks, MP3 bets $3,
Only $3....Ok now I was confused, I was expecting bigger...I tanked for a bit considering raising but alarm bells are ringing, don't know why just confused intuition.
Hero calls $3
Results: $22.07 pot ($0.99 rake)
Final Board: 4:heart: 7:spade: A:spade: A:heart: 2:club:
Hero mucked K:diamond: A:diamond: and lost (-$10.86 net)
MP3 showed A:club: 7:diamond: and won $21.08 ($10.22 net)
SIGH
Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players
SB: $37.35 (149.4 bb)
BB: $8.95 (35.8 bb)
Hero (UTG+2): $26.01 (104 bb)
MP1: $25.82 (103.3 bb)
MP2: $24.75 (99 bb)
MP3: $23.51 (94 bb) 69/2/25 in 68 hands
CO: $27.68 (110.7 bb)
BTN: $36.53 (146.1 bb)
Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K:diamond: A:diamond:
Hero raises to $0.75, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.75, 4 folds
Flop: ($1.85) 4:heart: 7:spade: A:spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets $0.75, Hero raises to $2.38, MP3 calls $1.63
Looking back at this I have no idea why I'm simply not betting here....(self slap) a CR just folds out something that might call a couple of streets.
Turn: ($6.61) A:heart: (2 players)
Hero bets $4.73, MP3 calls $4.73
River: ($16.07) 2:club: (2 players)
OK because he is so wide here i'm struggling to put him on a range. The busted flush draw is there or he is simply slow playing a set. The 2nd ace coming out reduces his Ax hands. If we bet we fold out his missed flush draw....Do we give him a chance to bluff here? Do we call if he shoves?
Hero checks, MP3 bets $3,
Only $3....Ok now I was confused, I was expecting bigger...I tanked for a bit considering raising but alarm bells are ringing, don't know why just confused intuition.
Hero calls $3
Results: $22.07 pot ($0.99 rake)
Final Board: 4:heart: 7:spade: A:spade: A:heart: 2:club:
Hero mucked K:diamond: A:diamond: and lost (-$10.86 net)
MP3 showed A:club: 7:diamond: and won $21.08 ($10.22 net)
SIGH
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Should I cbet here? What do we think about the turn overbet and the river sizing?
Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players
SB: $21.01 (105.1 bb)
BB: $20 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $20.16 (100.8 bb)
MP1: $13.80 (69 bb)
Hero (MP2): $20.45 (102.2 bb)
MP3: $19.40 (97 bb)
CO: $45.83 (229.2 bb) 19/11/41 in 108 hands semi loose aggressive
BTN: $20.46 (102.3 bb)
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A:diamond: J:diamond:
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.60, MP3 folds, CO calls $0.60, 3 folds
Flop: ($1.50) 8:spade: 5:spade: 7:diamond: (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60
Turn: ($2.70) 2:diamond: (2 players)
Hero bets $3.30, CO calls $3.30
River: ($9.30) J:club: (2 players)
Hero bets $6.97, CO calls $6.97
Results: $23.24 pot ($1.16 rake)
Final Board: 8:spade: 5:spade: 7:diamond: 2:diamond: J:club:
Hero showed A:diamond: J:diamond: and won $22.08 ($10.61 net)
CO showed J:spade: K:spade: and lost (-$11.47 net)
Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players
SB: $21.01 (105.1 bb)
BB: $20 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $20.16 (100.8 bb)
MP1: $13.80 (69 bb)
Hero (MP2): $20.45 (102.2 bb)
MP3: $19.40 (97 bb)
CO: $45.83 (229.2 bb) 19/11/41 in 108 hands semi loose aggressive
BTN: $20.46 (102.3 bb)
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A:diamond: J:diamond:
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.60, MP3 folds, CO calls $0.60, 3 folds
Flop: ($1.50) 8:spade: 5:spade: 7:diamond: (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60
Turn: ($2.70) 2:diamond: (2 players)
Hero bets $3.30, CO calls $3.30
River: ($9.30) J:club: (2 players)
Hero bets $6.97, CO calls $6.97
Results: $23.24 pot ($1.16 rake)
Final Board: 8:spade: 5:spade: 7:diamond: 2:diamond: J:club:
Hero showed A:diamond: J:diamond: and won $22.08 ($10.61 net)
CO showed J:spade: K:spade: and lost (-$11.47 net)
rhombus said:
Thanks. I think he explains it pretty well. I'd hope it would become obvious why you shouldn't be focusing on GTO play at anything under 400NL. Yeah, I just made a little GTO blog post here also 1 min ago:
http://acepokersolutions.com/poker-blog/gto-gto-gto-on-bovada/
Read his whole article just now... and this has pretty much been my point for the last several years now:
Well let’s just say for a moment that our opponent is actually a total fish and hes ALWAYS going to call the river and ALWAYS going to call a second-best hand. Against him, why would we want to take the steering wheel off, make the shove and have this 2/3 value – 1/3 bluff type range if he’s always going to call with a worse hand?. Why shove the bluffs in that situation? We could make it so our river shoving range is only the nuts, then obviously we make a ton more value against that fishy opponent who’s going to make the calling mistakes whether we use a GTO strategy or whether we employ an exploitative strategy.
In that situation, against a fishy opponent who’s going to make a lot of mistakes, using a more exploitative strategy is going to be best. This is often times what you’re going to find against bad players and against smaller stake players and microstake players; they don’t have enough knowledge to necessitate using a GTO strategy. Against them you can just play totally exploitative – find their leaks,
Well let’s just say for a moment that our opponent is actually a total fish and hes ALWAYS going to call the river and ALWAYS going to call a second-best hand. Against him, why would we want to take the steering wheel off, make the shove and have this 2/3 value – 1/3 bluff type range if he’s always going to call with a worse hand?. Why shove the bluffs in that situation? We could make it so our river shoving range is only the nuts, then obviously we make a ton more value against that fishy opponent who’s going to make the calling mistakes whether we use a GTO strategy or whether we employ an exploitative strategy.
In that situation, against a fishy opponent who’s going to make a lot of mistakes, using a more exploitative strategy is going to be best. This is often times what you’re going to find against bad players and against smaller stake players and microstake players; they don’t have enough knowledge to necessitate using a GTO strategy. Against them you can just play totally exploitative – find their leaks,
Adding a new feature in Leak Buster to make hand discussion easier. When you export hand data from the hands tab in the next release of LB, it will encode your hand for discussion via clickable equity calculator link. The calculator will auto generate hand ranges for you, and you can adjust or change them as you want, but it will allow you to have all the info data of any street analysis you want.
Leak Hand found and Converted by Leak Buster Poker Training Software
NL Holdem $0.5(BB)
SB ($60.17)
BB ($63.84)
UTG ($53.65)
HJ ($16.63)
HERO ($51.45)
BTN ($58.52)
Dealt to Hero T
T
UTG Folds, HJ Folds, HERO Raises To $1.75, BTN Raises To $5, SB Folds, BB Folds, HERO Calls $3.25
Flop ($10) 7
6
J
HERO Checks, BTN Bets $5.37, HERO Calls $5.37
Turn ($20.74) 7
6
J
8
HERO Checks, BTN Bets $11.24, HERO Calls $11.24
River ($43.22) 7
6
J
8
5
HERO Checks, BTN Bets $36.91, HERO Calls $29.84
BTN shows K
4
BTN wins $100.65
View this hand in the Poker Equity Calculator. Just click and it will auto load this hand.
Leak Hand found and Converted by Leak Buster Poker Training Software
NL Holdem $0.5(BB)
SB ($60.17)
BB ($63.84)
UTG ($53.65)
HJ ($16.63)
HERO ($51.45)
BTN ($58.52)
Dealt to Hero T
UTG Folds, HJ Folds, HERO Raises To $1.75, BTN Raises To $5, SB Folds, BB Folds, HERO Calls $3.25
Flop ($10) 7
HERO Checks, BTN Bets $5.37, HERO Calls $5.37
Turn ($20.74) 7
HERO Checks, BTN Bets $11.24, HERO Calls $11.24
River ($43.22) 7
HERO Checks, BTN Bets $36.91, HERO Calls $29.84
BTN shows K
BTN wins $100.65
View this hand in the Poker Equity Calculator. Just click and it will auto load this hand.
So what will give them an edge if studying math/theory is not the way to improve? Taking psychology lessons?John A said:
:smile:John A said:
Ok, but you do have some background in GTO to be able to know what might be correct and what not - so you know what exploitative adjustments to make (if not, than that's just a guessing game to me TBH). I'm just asking what was your base? Where did you start etc...John A said:
Thats cool. I've been looking at this also lately but mostly in relation to River Play + building some CREV trees with different scenarios for it as well (if that's what I think...you were talking about: do you use a tool similar to EDVis for that? 🙂).John A said:
They don't need to "be computers". IMO 100bb No-Limit Holdem will be eventually solved and despite the potentially enormous amount of data and information needed to be stored and constantly kept track of, somebody will just code a simple piece of software to fetch the appropriate decisions based on a current state of the game tree (if not, I will do that ffs).John A said:
I dont.rhombus said:
John A said:
I'm sorry but isn't it like really, really obvious? Of course if someone is calling too much (deviating from GTO), you're better off switching (deviating yourself from GTO) to a pure strategy of never bluffing in that particular spot. I mean... everybody knows that...Was that the point/purpose of your original question about our thoughts on GTO?
I think that in almost every book (and training video) about Game Theory I've read (watched) so far, the main idea was to always seek for exploitative deviations (maximally exploitative strategies), not actually trying to play GTO all the time and against everybody. Knowledge of GTO approximations/concepts allows you to find those deviations though. It's not my or your fault that some people just cannot comprehend that and call 3 pot barrels with a 4th pair to "make Villain indifferent to bluffing with ATC" or any other bs excuse.
John A said:
He was 62/2/25 so passive, I was just about to go all in when something told me he was just slowplaying and I check called his little suck bet.
In the long run this probably is losing value with that strong a hand on that board but I just went with my gut here and saved myself 50bb.(its more often right, thankfully)
Fknife said:
Hehe... ok. Math will solve no-limit. You're right. I'm not intending to bust your bubble in any way. Play on.
Here's my main point. If you want to learn a subject, you have to prioritize how and what you study. You don't want to spend days studying some very particular thing that has very little real world application, when there's a vast amount of other parts of that subject you could digest in a short period of time. My college brain would know the word for this, but one exists. 🙂
You need to hierarchically prioritize these things. I think a lot of GTO theory, when you break down and spend hours in decision tree's becomes a... "ya, duh". And when you listen to players who claim to know GTO in real time, you'll realize, that even before that knowneldge, they understood, hey I need to check some of my range here against this kind of opponent on this board. It's not like they are applying that knowledge, EVEN IF IT NEEDED to be perfectly.
So I think it can be interesting to play around with, it just wouldn't be my suggestion to players who are trying to learn right now. There are more important fundamentals to learn first imho.
Thanks for that advice. I really appreciate that. 🙂John A said:
John A said:
It gets even funnier if you have 3 different players talking about a similar spot saying different things about how GTO "should" look like there :argh:
I asked some time ago a high stakes pro, who is streaming almost everyday on Twitch (plays on Bavada), about "that" GTO stuff and he just said: "yeeaaaa, you can play a bit with your ranges in CREV but at the end of the day it's still just a guessing game" 🙁
John A said:
Agree.