hackmeplz - I understand what you are saying but by that logic we should just cbet 100% if we get more than 33.3% folds. The problem here is our cbet flop %, namely what hands are we NOT cbetting there? Our entire EP opening range can be argued to have some overcard/backdoor equity.
High cbet% will get attacked eventually with raises and floats (also, do we XF every time we check? I would like to have a XC/XR range). Also if we XF turn every time we miss our 8% (or even 10%) chance, we do that too much and suddenly our medium hands get attacked every time we try to pot control and we have to guess a lot... so then to counter we have to double/triple weak hands a lot. I just think all this taken together is hardly going to be profitable or at least better than having a more balanced (= smaller) flop cbet% which allows for XC/XR balance. Not cbetting OOP in MW pots on this kind of flop helps our overall stats.
The fact we have 4 nut outs helps, while overcard outs are tricky because they give us weak TP (RIO). Backdoor outs are nice but sometimes we will get burned by better BD draws.
Edit: Few comments. On all boards and vs. any number of opponents turn cbet gets less folds, so it is not profitable by itself (it needs a river barrel, which again has higher fold equity). 100NL+ might not be applicable for 10NL, I think 5NL-10NL play almost the same so those 2 could be taken together to increase sample size (I do it by taking stats of other players).
High cbet% will get attacked eventually with raises and floats (also, do we XF every time we check? I would like to have a XC/XR range). Also if we XF turn every time we miss our 8% (or even 10%) chance, we do that too much and suddenly our medium hands get attacked every time we try to pot control and we have to guess a lot... so then to counter we have to double/triple weak hands a lot. I just think all this taken together is hardly going to be profitable or at least better than having a more balanced (= smaller) flop cbet% which allows for XC/XR balance. Not cbetting OOP in MW pots on this kind of flop helps our overall stats.
The fact we have 4 nut outs helps, while overcard outs are tricky because they give us weak TP (RIO). Backdoor outs are nice but sometimes we will get burned by better BD draws.
Edit: Few comments. On all boards and vs. any number of opponents turn cbet gets less folds, so it is not profitable by itself (it needs a river barrel, which again has higher fold equity). 100NL+ might not be applicable for 10NL, I think 5NL-10NL play almost the same so those 2 could be taken together to increase sample size (I do it by taking stats of other players).
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LD1977 said:
No one ever said we should bet 100% of our range though? You're the one who said not to bluff anything here. You can't disprove the statement saying we should bluff SOMEthing by saying that we shouldn't cbet our whole range.
It honestly seems like you're just arguing to try to not be wrong at this point... We don't have to cbet our whole range and no one said we should, to my knowledge.
You literally just said that 100nl+ might not apply here, but you're now talking about players noticing our tendencies and hardcore exploiting us despite it being a multiway pot where we're UTG and have a strong preflop range? Sorry but I just don't buy it.
What better backdoor draws even get to the turn? A9hh and Q9hh are the only better combos he can ever really have.
LD1977 said:
reread that. now ill reword and elaborate for you...
"we should cbet this exact spot given the board texture and our hand, given that we only need a cbet to be sucessful 33%+ of the time, less the times that we make a winning hand on later streets. villains might have flopped a hand they wont fold, and we could brick later streets, but, based on what we all agree on, betting has a higher EV than x/c or c/f, since we will get folds here >33%, and the amount of folds we actually need is less than that, since our equity in this hand regardless of villains hand, is>0"
ps scourgee, teach me how to math plz
I really enjoy reading everyone's responses so don't worry about the derail scourge. I've actually read the replies over and over in order to fully understand what is being said. So thanks really for breaking it down so much.
On a side note,I've been messing around playing mostly tournaments for the past couple of days so not much to post really. Will get back to the grind tomorrow and post another spot that comes up where I'm lost and then we can have another argument. Lol.
Peace out bro.
On a side note,I've been messing around playing mostly tournaments for the past couple of days so not much to post really. Will get back to the grind tomorrow and post another spot that comes up where I'm lost and then we can have another argument. Lol.
Peace out bro.
Yeah by now the argument has clarified a bit and both sides have presented coherent opinions, which is basically what the purpose of a forum should be. Note that it wouldn't have happened if someone didn't play devil's advocate 😀
We definitely need another screenshot of MTT ownage, vinyl get to it, hop hop 😛
We definitely need another screenshot of MTT ownage, vinyl get to it, hop hop 😛
I maybe should've checked back in here sooner but I didn't think that whole cbet conversation was going to keep going on this way. We all seem to agree that it's a profitable play in a vacuum. Since there was literally nothing in the way of info/reads/stats and all that fun stuff provided with the hand in question there's no reason why you wouldn't make the play here. In case they eventually decide down the road that you're cbetting too much? See if they even realize first. If they do, let's see them try to adjust properly. We can shift gears at any time so we needn't leave money on the table by trying to adjust in advance to something that hasn't happened yet and may not at all. Our range is so much stronger than theirs on boards like this. We need to take advantage of it.
As for why aren't we cbetting our entire range here, well it's a great question lol. It can be argued that we should be. I wouldn't do it literally you can drop a few combos of unimproved small pairs or whatever... it really depends on OP's exact UTG range and whether it includes any offsuit unpaired hole cards etc but all of that aside let's keep in mind it's 10NL. If they have a HUD at all they're probably not going much deeper than your overall cbet figure which should look perfectly normal in spite of firing in this particular situation a whole lot (since we'll have many other opportunities to cbet that aren't this good). If one of your opponents eventually says "gee whiz this guy has cbet me 15 of the last 17 times on broken 9 high boards from UTG" then well knowing is half the battle (thank you Gung-Ho for teaching me that one) but he's still got to do something about it. Maybe he'll let you go all 3 streets with AA/KK. Maybe he'll find the balls to bluff raise said flops repping sets and complete air. Maybe he'll actually wait for those aforementioned sets before ever playing back at you heh. We have a plan for whatever it may be, but in the meantime exploitative playing tactics would be the way to go at 10NL.
Too bad I didn't really get to say anything until after the convo died. Oh well.
As for why aren't we cbetting our entire range here, well it's a great question lol. It can be argued that we should be. I wouldn't do it literally you can drop a few combos of unimproved small pairs or whatever... it really depends on OP's exact UTG range and whether it includes any offsuit unpaired hole cards etc but all of that aside let's keep in mind it's 10NL. If they have a HUD at all they're probably not going much deeper than your overall cbet figure which should look perfectly normal in spite of firing in this particular situation a whole lot (since we'll have many other opportunities to cbet that aren't this good). If one of your opponents eventually says "gee whiz this guy has cbet me 15 of the last 17 times on broken 9 high boards from UTG" then well knowing is half the battle (thank you Gung-Ho for teaching me that one) but he's still got to do something about it. Maybe he'll let you go all 3 streets with AA/KK. Maybe he'll find the balls to bluff raise said flops repping sets and complete air. Maybe he'll actually wait for those aforementioned sets before ever playing back at you heh. We have a plan for whatever it may be, but in the meantime exploitative playing tactics would be the way to go at 10NL.
Too bad I didn't really get to say anything until after the convo died. Oh well.
So yea, been playing abit of 2NL zoom just for laughs with a 30$ bankroll when i have some free time and this spot came up.
Best river action? villain is unknown. I overcalled cause i felt i was getting a good price IP.
PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com
Button ($1.70)
SB ($2)
BB ($2.58)
UTG ($3.27)
MP ($2.76)
Hero (CO) ($2.92)
Preflop: Hero is CO with 7
, J
UTG raises to $0.06, MP calls $0.06, Hero calls $0.06, 3 folds
Flop: ($0.21) 8
, 4
, 9
(3 players)
UTG bets $0.14, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.14
Turn: ($0.49) J
(2 players)
UTG bets $0.29, Hero calls $0.29
River: ($1.07) J
(2 players)
UTG bets $0.63, Hero ???? raise or is flatting fine?
Best river action? villain is unknown. I overcalled cause i felt i was getting a good price IP.
PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com
Button ($1.70)
SB ($2)
BB ($2.58)
UTG ($3.27)
MP ($2.76)
Hero (CO) ($2.92)
Preflop: Hero is CO with 7
UTG raises to $0.06, MP calls $0.06, Hero calls $0.06, 3 folds
Flop: ($0.21) 8
UTG bets $0.14, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.14
Turn: ($0.49) J
UTG bets $0.29, Hero calls $0.29
River: ($1.07) J
UTG bets $0.63, Hero ???? raise or is flatting fine?
Fold pre, seriously you are not getting a 'good price' there, your cards are garbage, if BTN overcalls you aren't IP, and if someone 3bets/squeezes you're going to be in trouble.
Post is fine OTF and fine OTT, river depends on how nitty he is (do you know that?), and whether he'll open with AJ/KJ/QJ/99/88 from UTG. Assuming he's a total unknown I think AJ/99/88/44/AA/KK/QQ is his range for calling a river raise, you beat 18 combos and lose to 13 combos, even if you include KJ (unlikely open from UTG) you still beat more than you lose to so I think raise, but not too big otherwise QQ-AA may fold, CIB maybe?
Post is fine OTF and fine OTT, river depends on how nitty he is (do you know that?), and whether he'll open with AJ/KJ/QJ/99/88 from UTG. Assuming he's a total unknown I think AJ/99/88/44/AA/KK/QQ is his range for calling a river raise, you beat 18 combos and lose to 13 combos, even if you include KJ (unlikely open from UTG) you still beat more than you lose to so I think raise, but not too big otherwise QQ-AA may fold, CIB maybe?
micromachine said:
He was a total unknown as i dont have too many hands on the people currently playing this limit. I see what you mean man but i just dont think my hand is strong enough to be raising this river. Alot of overpairs are probably folding and i dont really see any value in raising this river as i dont see worse ever calling,therefor it seem's like spew.
If i beat more than i lose to isnt just calling fine though ?
EDIT: +1 to the fold pre bit. It just looked like an "ok" flat while in game. thnks for post MM.
So yea, sup peeps.😛
Its been a while since i grinded and posted here in the forum. I remember not too long ago when i was crushing 5 and 2 NL and felt like a micro limit boss.
Well i deposited 10 euros (13 $) like a week ago and thought to myself ,lemme give 2NL a go for a bit and see whats up.
Well , roll is at 50 ish and im still balling(i kid you not😛)
Going to be posting progress here in order to keep myself motivated and hopefully i can get this dead thread going once again.
Took like 8 months off serious grinding and now that winter is coming back, im gonna be putting in volume grinding cash games again and see what i can do.
For motivational purposes im going to be posting all my hands here and in the meantime i will probably be posting interesting hands as well.
Got 2k hands so far which is a small sample but will be updating.
ps. i love cash games.
Its been a while since i grinded and posted here in the forum. I remember not too long ago when i was crushing 5 and 2 NL and felt like a micro limit boss.
Well i deposited 10 euros (13 $) like a week ago and thought to myself ,lemme give 2NL a go for a bit and see whats up.
Well , roll is at 50 ish and im still balling(i kid you not😛)
Going to be posting progress here in order to keep myself motivated and hopefully i can get this dead thread going once again.
Took like 8 months off serious grinding and now that winter is coming back, im gonna be putting in volume grinding cash games again and see what i can do.
For motivational purposes im going to be posting all my hands here and in the meantime i will probably be posting interesting hands as well.
Got 2k hands so far which is a small sample but will be updating.
ps. i love cash games.
Ok man, starting from the bottom once again.This time its for real.
Not gonna stop posting till i reach the top.
Deposited 20 euros yesterday. meaning 25$. Played 2.5k hands yesterday at home at strictly 2NL and made 16$ which is 8 buy ins. Woke up today came o work played another 2.6K hands and won another 20$ which is another 10 buy ins at 2NL. For a total of 18 buy ins=36$ profit in 2 days at 2NL.😱
Thank god the limit is still super easy.
Roll is now at 60$. Going to be playing 2NL till roll is at 100$ and then move up to 5NL. I know this is like a rinse and repeat process but this time im going to keep it running.
Dont even know if anyone is interested in this thread anymore but ill be doing the updating anyways as a personal diary and as motivation.
Problem is i cant sync my home database to my work database so i have to talk to someone to help me out (LD r u there bro?)
Anyways this is todays graph from 4 tabling zoom at 2NL and ill kepp posting all my progress daily. wish me luck boys.
Not gonna stop posting till i reach the top.
Deposited 20 euros yesterday. meaning 25$. Played 2.5k hands yesterday at home at strictly 2NL and made 16$ which is 8 buy ins. Woke up today came o work played another 2.6K hands and won another 20$ which is another 10 buy ins at 2NL. For a total of 18 buy ins=36$ profit in 2 days at 2NL.😱
Thank god the limit is still super easy.
Roll is now at 60$. Going to be playing 2NL till roll is at 100$ and then move up to 5NL. I know this is like a rinse and repeat process but this time im going to keep it running.
Dont even know if anyone is interested in this thread anymore but ill be doing the updating anyways as a personal diary and as motivation.
Problem is i cant sync my home database to my work database so i have to talk to someone to help me out (LD r u there bro?)
Anyways this is todays graph from 4 tabling zoom at 2NL and ill kepp posting all my progress daily. wish me luck boys.
I thought you have a huge BR these days after binking those tourneys? 😕
Anyway, no idea how to sync stuff, I do things manually.
Meaning, you can either export one DB and import it into the other or copy hand histories from one computer and import those into the other.
Anyway, no idea how to sync stuff, I do things manually.
Meaning, you can either export one DB and import it into the other or copy hand histories from one computer and import those into the other.
LD1977 said:
I do have a huge bankroll bro. just not online😛.
Withdrew all those tourney binks and havent been playing at all the past 6 months. tried to deposit alittle money and do some cash from zero and the variance is crazy.
The problem isnt the variance though. It's the constant bad beats. im running almost 10BI below what im supposed to be running and its like getting annoying.
Anyways, all good. Got 2 more weeks till the end of the month so ill see where this cash grind goes.
On a sidenote, i got to hit u up on skype at some point so maybe you can guide me through the hand importing cause i cant seem to figure out how its done.
thnks LD.