Not trying to be an an azz or anything but I got a question for you guys, no its not a trick question but I'm just wondering is there ever a time to play something other than what you guys call "standard"? is there a such thing as thinking outside the box when you have history with someone and you are like 95% sure the cards the villain is holding but you decide to take a different line because of history? does that ever happen to you guys or is it always playing by the book?
EDIT: I'm just wondering this because of the thread combu posted and he got his ass chewed out for taking a non "standard" line so I'm just curious
EDIT: I'm just wondering this because of the thread combu posted and he got his ass chewed out for taking a non "standard" line so I'm just curious
Bob, I think eventually there has to be am alternate way of thinking if you and another player have a lot of history together. I am not
really an example, grinding multiple tables of micro ring. As for many of the higher limit and especially 6 max players, of course they can't play every hand taking a "standard" line. However, what do you mean by us knowing 95% the villains hand? Is it a hand we have beat..or a hand we are trying to get them to fold? I think there's a fine line between doing something not standard and FPS.
really an example, grinding multiple tables of micro ring. As for many of the higher limit and especially 6 max players, of course they can't play every hand taking a "standard" line. However, what do you mean by us knowing 95% the villains hand? Is it a hand we have beat..or a hand we are trying to get them to fold? I think there's a fine line between doing something not standard and FPS.
Irexes said:
Right I agree, I understand there are spots where we sort of have to just get it all in or w/e the standard line would be but I'm just wondering if there are ever spots you would take that non standard line, for example combu's hand, I mean I have had hands like that, where I knew villains range inside and out and I was just letting him bet into me rather than saying making that standard raise when the flop was wet. I know I'm talking just in general but I sort of don't post in hand analysis that much anymore, because I try to look at all angles and when I do I get "made fun of" (using nice words) for not taking the standard line.
The Shrog said:
I just mean the times we are positive we know what villain has and even though the board looks dangerous we take another route and instead of raising we flat just knowing the villain will bet where as the standard line against someone else would be to raise.
eNTy said:
1 person registers, waits for that game to start, then instead of registering for the next 1, the other person registers. So we each register in every other game.
Also I agree with you bob, when playing normally, the standard line is the most profitable, but when i play against regs in omaha, and pretty much 90% of the time i play holdem, i take the non standard line just because it suits my style. I'm probably 1 of very few in terms of percentage of people that make a loose passive game work, i have a sick cbet% of like 20% 🙂
I think there are ton of situation where "outside the box" or non-standard lines have there place but the problem with posting HH for analysis is that even if u include a lot of reads/stats ect that still doesnt fully explain your history with villain if you know eachother well since some one you play with a lot the standard line wont be profitable(asuming villain is good).bob_tiger said:
Same for posting HH where u pull of a big bluff,every one knows u have to bluff in NL but analysing them with out having the complete history with villain becomes almost impossible.
Thats why analysis threads allways try to go for the most standard line.
c9h13no3 said:
right I completely agree, that's why it helps a lot when in analysis section people post if they have history between the other player, obviously if we don't have any history then we just give them a range based on how that person has been playing and we just play their range, but I'm talking about the situations where you can narrow down their range from say 10 possible hands they can be holding to like one or two and we just play "their hand" for them, by that I mean taking that non standard line and let them bet for you. I know this doesn't happen often but I have had times, where I had absolute nuts on the river and I would check knowing villain knows I wouldn't bluff against him on that river but also knowing his hand and that he would bet say with a missed draw with last attempt to take it down. I just want to discuss and look at all angles, and look I got nothing against you or anybody else, I just wish as a poker forum we could discuss those angles since two+ heads are better than one.
combuboom said:
Didn't see you.
Starting to feel quite at home at the 200nl tables. Enough for hero calls... 🙂
Full Tilt poker game #10747946958: Table Water Coconut - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:03:02 ET - 2009/02/20
Seat 1: robnice ($216.60)
Seat 2: PhatCatz ($408.90)
Seat 3: punkkid_here ($252.70)
Seat 4: JUJILICIOUS ($298.75)
Seat 5: Bowie 1963 ($200.60), is sitting out
Seat 6: BelgoSuisse ($200)
Seat 7: maddogman73 ($192.75)
Seat 8: muckman67 ($106.50)
Seat 9: rjb28 ($90.30)
JUJILICIOUS posts the small blind of $1
BelgoSuisse posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BelgoSuisse [Jc Js]
maddogman73 calls $2
muckman67 calls $2
rjb28 folds
robnice folds
PhatCatz folds
punkkid_here folds
JUJILICIOUS calls $1
BelgoSuisse raises to $12
maddogman73 folds
muckman67 calls $10
JUJILICIOUS folds
*** FLOP *** [Ts Ac 4c]
BelgoSuisse has 15 seconds left to act
BelgoSuisse bets $16
muckman67 raises to $94.50, and is all in
BelgoSuisse has 15 seconds left to act
BelgoSuisse has requested TIME
BelgoSuisse calls $78.50
muckman67 shows [Qd 8d]
BelgoSuisse shows [Jc Js]
*** TURN *** [Ts Ac 4c] [8h]
*** RIVER *** [Ts Ac 4c 8h] [Ah]
muckman67 shows two pair, Aces and Eights
BelgoSuisse shows two pair, Aces and Jacks
BelgoSuisse wins the pot ($214) with two pair, Aces and Jacks
[x] Just recorded a second video with Taylor.
[x] Played 2/4.
[x] Ran ridulously hot.
[ ] Still down for the month.
[x] Added some cursing to appease the masses.
[ ] Managed to not screw up recording so we didn't have to start from scratch after 30 minutes.
[x] Possibly first time doing checkboxes.
[x] Played 2/4.
[x] Ran ridulously hot.
[ ] Still down for the month.
[x] Added some cursing to appease the masses.
[ ] Managed to not screw up recording so we didn't have to start from scratch after 30 minutes.
[x] Possibly first time doing checkboxes.
bob, the way i look at it is that we're always playing against our opponent's range. and when you're playing a range, there will often but not always be plays that are just superior to others
one example is where the villain plays his hand really really strongly all the way, but he's also prone to making big bluffs. his range is defined as either really strong hands, or bluffs, because he'd just try to get to showdown with something marginal. holding a weak top pair hand against this range, check/calling on the river is a superior play to bet/folding. it's a more "standard" line simply because it's better mathematically. if you bet/fold, he folds his bluffs -- or bluff-raises you which would be even worse. and he obviously raises you for value with his monsters. but if you check/call, you can gain $ from the times he continues his bluff. of course, check/folding could be even better than check/calling, depending on how heavily his range is weighted towards bluffs and how often he'll fire a third barrel. that's where educated guesswork and knowing the player comes in
usually if you're a decent favorite and you don't think the guy is folding, it's "standard" to get the money in simply because you will rarely be able to define his range well enough to know exactly which cards hit him and which don't. however, sometimes a player will take a line where you can define their range down to a single hand, or single type of hand because they don't play any other hand that way. the more narrowly you can define their range, the more merit there is to playing creatively and prolonging the hand, in my opinion, because you'll be able to make great decisions against their range. when their range is wide, it's much more difficult to do that, and you'd rather just get all the money in that you can while you know you're a favorite against it
one example is where the villain plays his hand really really strongly all the way, but he's also prone to making big bluffs. his range is defined as either really strong hands, or bluffs, because he'd just try to get to showdown with something marginal. holding a weak top pair hand against this range, check/calling on the river is a superior play to bet/folding. it's a more "standard" line simply because it's better mathematically. if you bet/fold, he folds his bluffs -- or bluff-raises you which would be even worse. and he obviously raises you for value with his monsters. but if you check/call, you can gain $ from the times he continues his bluff. of course, check/folding could be even better than check/calling, depending on how heavily his range is weighted towards bluffs and how often he'll fire a third barrel. that's where educated guesswork and knowing the player comes in
usually if you're a decent favorite and you don't think the guy is folding, it's "standard" to get the money in simply because you will rarely be able to define his range well enough to know exactly which cards hit him and which don't. however, sometimes a player will take a line where you can define their range down to a single hand, or single type of hand because they don't play any other hand that way. the more narrowly you can define their range, the more merit there is to playing creatively and prolonging the hand, in my opinion, because you'll be able to make great decisions against their range. when their range is wide, it's much more difficult to do that, and you'd rather just get all the money in that you can while you know you're a favorite against it