Freeroll culture has hurt poker....

albosaltenio · Apr 11, 2016

good point, but I think the free ` are helpful for those who do not have the possibility to make some deposit.
it is true that needs deposits , but we can not all make deposits frequently

eberetta1 · Apr 11, 2016

freerolls are no different than a casino offering $10 hotel rooms or a pizza joint giving kids eat free discounts on Tuesdays. You are trying to get people to come in the door. If you do things right, others follow right behind.

Mason Pye · Apr 12, 2016

I would have to disagree. I actually believe it has helped get more people into the game by allowing them to play for real money for free!

theRaven68 · Apr 12, 2016

The economy of poker needs depositors and depositing is a must, however freerolls are required for all other purposes

Rumme1 · Apr 12, 2016

A2345Razz said:
I have formed this view in the last say 5 yrs that we've collectively sold the dream of being a pro/profitable as a player early in your career way, WAY too much to the public. Here is why:

1) It's much MUCH less likely to happen in 2015 as it was in 2005...there chances of picking up the game and being able to support yourself as an adult living independently within say 24 months is very remote in 1st world contexts.

2) We shouldn't define "success" in poker as being profitable or a pro. Poker is a game and an hobby, and if you enjoy it responsibly and draw joy from it, than you are successful as a player, period. At the same time it is intellectual exercise and helps the mind develop and at the least stay better longer into our life.

3) It's important for beginners to actually DEPOSIT A DECENT amount of money generally for us to maintain this game. The poker world needs net depositors period to survive. Why is it a lot of new players are so afraid/reluctant to deposit say 200-500 dollar in their first 24 months?

THIS IS A HOBBY, and there are costs related to all/most hobbies.

5) We need to stop selling poker as a moneymaking venture period bc when we do we look like hucksters and and liars to lay people. Poker is a game, a gambling game where the net profit/loss is a loss for all players based on rake. Stop talking about how people are supporting themselves on poker; it is very very few mainly younger people and many of them would be better of getting into their careers and not opening multi yr holes on their CVs.

I am sorry, but someone needed to say it...

Disagree on most of your views.

For me, poker is not a hobby...gardening is a hobby, weightlifting is a hobby, playing guitar is a hobby. Poker is a means of income even though most poker players lose money in the long run , they are the ones that allow me to win money.

To claim that it is less likely to be profitable in poker in 2015 then 2005, is unproveable and just a theory you have. Some players would claim the exact opposite and say there are more internet poker sites then ever before and certainly more live poker tourneys on the circuit.

IMHO..it is important for begginners, to NOT DEPOSIT a significant amount of money . In fact, for a begginner, I think its much better to use their money to play live poker , and play freerolls online because online poker is a different medium and alot more money can be lost online, due to the ability to always find a game, from the convenience of ones living room along with the fact that playing online results in many more hands being dealt , which can lead to more rake , more bad beats, more reckless playing.

Finally, your statement that

" Poker is a game, a gambling game where the net profit/loss is a loss for all players based on rake "

doesnt make much sense to me . If the rake in poker bothers you so much, then find a no rake game..or play in half rake games , or just stick to tourneys .

Are you a micro stakes player ? I believe that with your faulty opinions on poker , you probably dont play much high stakes, nor do you make much profits year after year.

Rumme1 · Apr 12, 2016

CSINSC said:
Where do U think the freeroll money goes? It goes right back into the cash games & tournaments. Every day there are freerolls & every day that freeroll money is put back onto the tables. Not sure why U don't like amateurs playing with money, that U should win, on the tables ever day?

exactly right....when players play only freerolls..and win their $20 for grinding it out for first place....that money goes right back into the online poker site because these sites have minimum cashouts and they know that when a player gets lucky enough to win $20 in a freeroll, that money cant be cashed out...it is put in play.

Almost everything that was said by the guy who started this thread, is wrong. I dont know where people get these false ideas from. Freerolls also allow players to get a feel for the sites software , player pool and to see if they run good cards, or cold cards on the site. For example, I recently joined blackchip poker , and in 6 weeks of freerolls, I can tell that the site is not gonna be a lucky site for me . They wont get a penny deposit from me, until I start winning hands that I am supposed to win . As long as the bad beats continue, my money stays in my pocket and not deposited in some overseas account . As soon as my KK starts winning against A/rag or my AK , starts winning against K/J....then Ill consider making a deposit.

RogueRivered · Apr 12, 2016

The only thing that makes poker work, like any sort of capitalist idea, be it the lottery, the casino, the horse races, the professional athlete, is the thought that you might just be the ONE. Why did it gain in popularity so fast when it did? Because people started to see relative nobodies winning millions of dollars. It's called "the Moneymaker Effect." As in Chris Moneymaker winning the Main Event from an online satellite. Of course, it was also important that poker started to be seen on TV. The invention of the pocket cam was instrumental. Nobody cared too much about watching people play a strategic game when they didn't understand what was going on. Selling poker as a strategic and challenging endeavor isn't going to bring in everyday Joe.

I've always found it funny that when the lottery jackpot is in the multi-millions, people say, meh, why bother, but when it reaches new record heights, the same people will be standing in long lines to get their shot at it. Like they say, "oh, I don't care if I win 95 million dollars, but wow, if I can win 700 million or a billion, now it's worth playing. It's not very logical. Your odds don't go up.

Same goes for starting a business. Most people need the profit incentive to go for it. And they'll sink lots of their own money into it while pursuing the dream. Can everyone make it? Of course, not. But it's the opportunity that's the most important thing. Kind of like the difference between communism and capitalism. When no one has any incentive to try to do things well, everyone suffers.

One thing about freerolls is that there are always winners. These winners think, "hey, I'm pretty good and look at those other tournaments with big prizes. I need to get in those," so they deposit. And it's up to the poker rooms to keep the dream of the big payday alive. Without big incentive and promotion or exposure, no new blood will enter. People don't get too upset if they lose, as long as they still have the dream.

Rumme1 · Apr 12, 2016

rifflemao said:
I wonder how much Chris Ferguson's Zero to 10k challenge might have helped sell the no-deposit culture back in the day (well before all hell broke loose).

You have to be very leary of any type of news you are told by lying outlets of media / tv / poker magazines. These venues are often used as a propaganda arm to promote or sell a product/ idea/ passtime....... that benefits the people who own and control much of the things on earth.

Chris Fergusons story could be true, then again it could be just another lie/exxageration , in which none of us can prove. There used to be a woman who played in the big tourneys on tv, and they used to market her as someone who once played a online tournament, and won it, without ever looking at her cards...as proof of how good she could read her opponents . Once again, this could be true, but I view it as another likely propaganda promotion ....or at the very least, we are not being given the complete details. For example, if it is true { which is highly unlikely] , then maybe it was just a 1 on 1 heads up tournament and not a regular huge field online tourney.

When it comes to media, and social trends and advertising, I find it is best to take what we are told, with a grain of salt, because in the end, the parasites that own and control most of the powerful and profitable venues on earth, are after one thing...OUR MONEY ! Its all about advertising , promotion , glorifying and setting social trends to keep people in society spending their money on things.

Rumme1 · Apr 12, 2016

RogueRivered said:
The only thing that makes poker work, like any sort of capitalist idea, be it the lottery, the casino, the horse races, the professional athlete, is the thought that you might just be the ONE. Why did it gain in popularity so fast when it did? Because people started to see relative nobodies winning millions of dollars. It's called "the Moneymaker Effect." As in Chris Moneymaker winning the Main Event from an online satellite. Of course, it was also important that poker started to be seen on TV. The invention of the pocket cam was instrumental. Nobody cared too much about watching people play a strategic game when they didn't understand what was going on. Selling poker as a strategic and challenging endeavor isn't going to bring in everyday Joe.

I've always found it funny that when the lottery jackpot is in the multi-millions, people say, meh, why bother, but when it reaches new record heights, the same people will be standing in long lines to get their shot at it. Like they say, "oh, I don't care if I win 95 million dollars, but wow, if I can win 700 million or a billion, now it's worth playing. It's not very logical. Your odds don't go up.

Same goes for starting a business. Most people need the profit incentive to go for it. And they'll sink lots of their own money into it while pursuing the dream. Can everyone make it? Of course, not. But it's the opportunity that's the most important thing. Kind of like the difference between communism and capitalism. When no one has any incentive to try to do things well, everyone suffers.

One thing about freerolls is that there are always winners. These winners think, "hey, I'm pretty good and look at those other tournaments with big prizes. I need to get in those," so they deposit. And it's up to the poker rooms to keep the dream of the big payday alive. Without big incentive and promotion or exposure, no new blood will enter. People don't get too upset if they lose, as long as they still have the dream.

Yes, TV proved how powerful it is, when it came to promoting NL hold em to society. If you remember back to the year when moneymaker was on TV...the poker biz promoted poker in a genius way, by not only making people think they could be the next millionaire, but by also making poker players look " cool' ...for example...the tv was promoting those 4 or 5 young players they called the " rat pack" .....which ironically you dont hear about any of those players today { they probably went broke} .

The TV, also introduced us to many pro players, by giving them cool names..like THE PROFESSOR , KID POKER...THE BRAT...ETC...

this is all part of marketing gimmicks, and social fads...all to get people in society to spend their money . the one group that owns and control much of tv/meida, magazines, etc...are masters at programming the public .

I used to play poker with the guy that invented that table cameras that allowed viewers to see players down cards. We played at the TAJ in atlantic city....He was also the inventor of some other stuff and has several patents .

Rumme1 · Apr 12, 2016

A2345Razz said:
Oh, you weren't aware that both live and online poker is contracting right now as we speak ?

Sorry, but go ahead and check Pokerscout if you don't believe me....there is no ambiguity on the topic, POKER IS SHRINKING.

if poker is shrinking...its not due to freerolls, its due to players losing their money continually and realizing that poker isnt all glitz and wealth as portrayed on the talmud tv sets. The moneymaker effect was also a social experiment that brought in millions of new players with the dream that they could be a amateur and strike it rich in poker...well guess what..95% of those poker players found out that dream was a nightmare . The poker boom, like most other booms ...was bound to burnout from its peak.

Im sorry, but most of the things you have said on this thread, are really incorrect .

Rumme1 · Apr 12, 2016

as far as online poker is concerned, I think it has been a blessing and a curse.

It has allowed millions of people to lose their food money, rent money, from the convenience of their living rooms. Also, the lack of solid regulations in the internet poker scene and the cheating/scandals, has been a huge black mark on poker...certainly hurting poker more then freerolls.

Freerolls are not making poker less popular

corrupt internet poker sites , people having less money to lose , poor paying jobs and the fall of the poker boom [ which is a natural event whenever something goes from boom to bust} are primary reasons.

IMHO...playing poker online, has more luck and less skills, then live poker..because live poker its easier to pickup on players tells...how they bet, facial gestures, vocal gestures, etc....none of this can be applied to online play , which means those skills of perception, are eliminated from the equations .

proud2Bwhack · Apr 12, 2016

being a pro gambler of any sort is a dream that will never die. And I would have to say it comes naturally, people dont have to be talked into it or sold the idea.

The second half of a freeroll MTT is very close to what a real money lower end tournament feels like, and is good practice for that. MUCH BETTER THAN PLAY MONEY!!!

kbuinowski · Apr 12, 2016

about poker

A2345Razz said:
I have formed this view in the last say 5 yrs that we've collectively sold the dream of being a pro/profitable as a player early in your career way, WAY too much to the public. Here is why:

1) It's much MUCH less likely to happen in 2015 as it was in 2005...there chances of picking up the game and being able to support yourself as an adult living independently within say 24 months is very remote in 1st world contexts.

2) We shouldn't define "success" in poker as being profitable or a pro. Poker is a game and an hobby, and if you enjoy it responsibly and draw joy from it, than you are successful as a player, period. At the same time it is intellectual exercise and helps the mind develop and at the least stay better longer into our life.

3) It's important for beginners to actually DEPOSIT A DECENT amount of money generally for us to maintain this game. The poker world needs net depositors period to survive. Why is it a lot of new players are so afraid/reluctant to deposit say 200-500 dollar in their first 24 months?

THIS IS A HOBBY, and there are costs related to all/most hobbies.

5) We need to stop selling poker as a moneymaking venture period bc when we do we look like hucksters and and liars to lay people. Poker is a game, a gambling game where the net profit/loss is a loss for all players based on rake. Stop talking about how people are supporting themselves on poker; it is very very few mainly younger people and many of them would be better of getting into their careers and not opening multi yr holes on their CVs.

I am sorry, but someone needed to say it...

But right now credit cards and most banks won't allow you to deposit money into your poker account. I do know one website you can pay for membership and they give you so many chips every day for the poker tourneys. Which WPT. But even our government is trying to make it hard to put money into your poker account and trying to stop these websites that are being run out side of the United States.

KALUGAJ · Apr 12, 2016

Poker room can give you a bonus in unlimited quantities and you have cleared the bonus, but when you get it then not pay, then see if it is a reputable poker room or not.

korneel · Apr 12, 2016

I like freerolls.
Otherwise I wouldn't be ablle to play poker anymore.

fordman427 · Apr 12, 2016

I think its cool to see people try to run up a bankroll using freerolls

Rumme1 · Apr 12, 2016

MikeyE8 said:
I don't know what the problem with freerolls are. It gives people an opportunity to make it from nothing. People might be scared to invest because they want to test their abilities. Freerolls allow for that to happen. Freerolls attract new players and are good for poker. That is my opinion anyway.

Freerolls arent the problem with poker. The person that started this thread is clueless. Hes ranting about a subject in which his conjectures are faulty.

Freerolls actually generate more players to sign up for a internet poker site, and eventually deposit money in those sites..even if its only the bare minimum. Without freerolls on these poker sites, they would have less traffic..not more.

cese1962 · Apr 12, 2016

80% of the players has no commitment to free tournaments

80% of the players has no commitment to free tournaments
When I attend torneior free or tournaments with low value notice that most do not play very obeying the rule of a good game of poker.
Sometimes end up winning a few hands for luck. This ends up annoying the other players.

------------

80% dos jogadores não tem compromisso em torneior free
Quando participo de torneior free ou de torneios com baixo valor noto que a maioria não joga obedecendo muito a regra de um bom jogo de poker.
As vezes acabam ganhando algumas mãos por sorte. Isto acaba irritando os demais jogadores.

CSINSC · Apr 12, 2016

I personally feel that you can rate the quality of the site based on the frequency/value of freerolls. If a site doesn't offer freerolls I have ZERO desire to play there & as U so eloquently stated they won't get a penny from me. I do like the 100 freeroll that this site offers via ACR. There is usually ~75 players & top 15 pay so min-cashing usually takes around 90 minutes which isn't too hard to accomplish. Plus min-cashing is for $2 & not pennies. I'm grateful for this.

orsino12 · Apr 12, 2016

Freerolls are really the best incentive to get new players to a site. As said above, in most cases the payouts are below the minimum cashout for a site (maybe just the top 3 or 4 in a big freeroll might make enough) so most of that money ends up getting played on the site. There are very few players who will play freerolls exclusively. I love freerolls, but I look at them as a bonus to help pad my bankroll playing micro stakes. I'm just a recreational player who plays 1, or sometimes 2 tables while watching TV in the evening so it's easy to play any freerolls that come along, they don't take away from my normal playing like they might for those who like to play 6 or 10 tables at once.
When pokerstars dropped all my favorite freerolls I cashed out and tried 888 and haven't regretted it once.

KillerHurtz · Apr 13, 2016

I'm currently in a bet with my friend to see how fast I can turn $0 into $1,000. I'm not allowed to deposit anything. Freerolls are the only way to go!

Cupcakehk · Apr 13, 2016

Freerolls

CSINSC said:
I personally feel that you can rate the quality of the site based on the frequency/value of freerolls. If a site doesn't offer freerolls I have ZERO desire to play there & as U so eloquently stated they won't get a penny from me. I do like the 100 freeroll that this site offers via ACR. There is usually ~75 players & top 15 pay so min-cashing usually takes around 90 minutes which isn't too hard to accomplish. Plus min-cashing is for $2 & not pennies. I'm grateful for this.

I like playing freerolls. It helps to pass the time when you are bored at home. Quick question - what is ACR?

I find some of the freerolls are hard to win because you have to come out less than 100 out of 5000-10000 players. I just came in 175 place and it was hard. Had to make a move because blinds reached $1600 and I only had $5,000 left. Went in with jq and pair of fours won with the player with the highest chip stack.

Better luck next time...

CSINSC · Apr 13, 2016

ACR is Americas Card Room. This site once U get enough quality posts has $100 freerolls on Thursday nights on ACR.

A2345Razz · May 13, 2016

If anyone is going to comment, PLEASE READ THE WHOLE FIRST POST AND NOT ASSUME I AM AGAINST ALL FREEROLLS, I AM NOT.

I ACTUALLY THINK FREE ROLLS PLAY A GOOD ROLE IN GROWING OUR GAME......

What I am against is what I termed: FREE ROLL CULTURE. Please read the OP and make sure you actually understand what I mean by free roll culture before responding.

Rumme1 said:
Disagree on most of your views.

For me, poker is not a hobby...gardening is a hobby, weightlifting is a hobby, playing guitar is a hobby. Poker is a means of income even though most poker players lose money in the long run , they are the ones that allow me to win money.

Well, that is fine for you...but if EVERY player in the environment feels that way poker becomes completely unsustainable as it is a zero sum game and there needs to be net depositors for there to be both winners and the game to exist (i.e. rake).

I am not sure why you're having difficulty decoupling your circumstance from the ecosystem that is poker, I can't help you with developing more effective abstract thought patterns....but I wouldn't recommend trying to learn anything in the hard sciences or math for you/.

To claim that it is less likely to be profitable in poker in 2015 then 2005, is unproveable and just a theory you have. Some players would claim the exact opposite and say there are more internet poker sites then ever before and certainly more live poker tourneys on the circuit.

No, it's generally accepted by virtually everyone who has played through the boom that it is DRAMATICALLY harder to make money now than it was in 2006 at the height of the boom. If you really question this you're beyond clueless....go on 2+2 and look what long time players are saying about it yourself. I played in 2005 and I play now, the games are dramatically harder now and imploding as we talk volume wise.

Live poker tourneys....as consistent money makers??? ROFLMFAO.

IMHO..it is important for begginners, to NOT DEPOSIT a significant amount of money . In fact, for a begginner, I think its much better to use their money to play live poker , and play freerolls online because online poker is a different medium and alot more money can be lost online, due to the ability to always find a game, from the convenience of ones living room along with the fact that playing online results in many more hands being dealt , which can lead to more rake , more bad beats, more reckless playing.

Lol, are you kidding; live poker is usually played for 10 times the stakes or more than online poker; everything you just stated makes no sense given that fact.

Finally, your statement that

" Poker is a game, a gambling game where the net profit/loss is a loss for all players based on rake "

doesnt make much sense to me . If the rake in poker bothers you so much, then find a no rake game..or play in half rake games , or just stick to tourneys .

Well, many things might not make sense to you, and that is bc apparently you're just not a very bright person. RAKE IS A NET NEGATIVE to money in the ecosystem, that is hardly me saying it bothers me. You just need to account for it with DEPOSITS eventually or the whole house of cards falls. That is the point, we NEED DEPOSITORS for poker to work. That DOESN'T MEAN FREEROLLS AS A WHOLE ARE BAD AT ALL...SOME OF YOU GUYS SIMPLY DIDN'T READ MY 1ST THREAD.

It does mean FREEROLL CULTURE is bad for poker and the expectation should be that a beginning player needs to expect to deposit some money in order to get good at this game.

Also, you are aware that MTTs have rake, right?

Rakeless games? Where on the internet are there rakeless games??

What on earth is this person talking about?

Are you a micro stakes player ? I believe that with your faulty opinions on poker , you probably dont play much high stakes, nor do you make much profits year after year.

I have profits lifetime in the mid 5 figures and currently play smaller MTTs online and midstakes live when I can which is rare.

I've had winning years for 11 out of the last 12 I believe.

billbaffles · May 18, 2016

Ive decided to never deposit again and am working on building an ACR bankroll using the all the freerolls that are offered. I already did the deposit thing when i first started out and that didnt go so well so i figure if i cannot win money by playing poker and cashing in a freeroll and then going to a micro stakes table and building it up then i shouldnt really be risking the money to play higher stakes or micro anyways because then id lose my own money. I like how freerolls offer me the chance to build a bankroll without having to use my own money and then when i play micros i create rake for the site by competing against other players who may or may not have deposited.

Freeroll culture has hurt poker....

albosaltenio

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eberetta1

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Mason Pye

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theRaven68

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Rumme1

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Rumme1

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RogueRivered

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Rumme1

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proud2Bwhack

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kbuinowski

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CSINSC

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