So some of you may have realized that I haven't been around much lately, at the tables or even here. As a matter of fact, before this week I had not played in over 3 weeks. I had decided that poker could be affecting my life in a negative way. I played around 30,000 hands in the month of January alone, which didn't leave too much time for much else, most importantly school. I needed to prioritize in order to keep my grades on track. It wasn't just that though, I can really almost lost a desire to even play the game. It was becoming mundane and just monotonous. I told myself that I would do no things poker until I felt like playing again, which was this week. I know I don't need to explain this to everyone but I just felt compelled to let everyone know that I made a minor commitment in a way with this thread in particular and I just wanted everyone to know that I'm back at it now. Lets do this!
With that being said: My first ever "thory/instructional thread," so go easy on me. I managed to get to 700 posts making small amounts of hand contributions and more just discussion with other players, which has been great, but I think I can improve my game more by trying to help other beginner's learn the game. Here you are 😀 😀
Okay Let’s discuss a couple of strategies involved with certain pre-flop hands that are very important yet often misunderstood. I’m talking about playing for sets with pocket pairs. Firstly, since my “forte,” if you can call it that, is NLHE, that is what I will focus on that alone. Many people get too attached to this type of hand and call away too much of their money hoping to hit that “miracle” card. The odds to “set up” your 2 paired cards is 7.5/1 for the flop. To explain that in more detail, on average (which is over a very very long period of time) you will catch one of those 2 remaining cards every 7 and a half hands that you receive a pocket pair, and you must play your cards according to the odds. I’m sure some of you if not most already know what I’m referring too. However, this article was intended for the entry/beginning poker player so I will explain further.
I feel like the best way to explain what I’m getting across is an example; here is one of my recent hands that you will see so often in ring game:
Seat 1: ($9.65 in chips)
Seat 2: ($9.85 in chips)
Seat 3: ($9.70 in chips)
Seat 4: ($3.45 in chips) BTN
Seat 5: ($10.05 in chips) SB
Seat 6: ($6.40 in chips) BB
Seat 7: ($3.90 in chips)
Seat 8: ($10 in chips)
Seat 9: lemlywinks ($10.35 in chips)
Seat 5: posts small blind $0.05
Seat 6: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to lemlywinks [5c 5d]
Seat 7: calls $0.10
Seat 8: calls $0.10
Lemlywinks: calls $0.10
Seat 1: calls $0.10
Seat 2: folds
Seat 3: folds
Seat 4: raises $0.30 to $0.40
Seat 5: folds
Seat 6: folds
Seat 7: calls $0.30
Seat 8: calls $0.30
Seat 9: lemlywinks: ???
Okay let’s think this one through. To begin, when I get low to mid pairs like these 5’s I usually try to see a cheap flop, so I just called. Seat 4 raised 4x the blind to 0.40. For the sake of not getting caught up in playing sets against certain types of players, let’s just assume we have no reads on any of these players. Seats 7 & 8 call the raise. It’s to us now, and what do we do? We need to look at the size of the pot and determine if we have the odds to make the call. This is simple. You just need to count up all the current amount of $ in the pot. Here we had a pot of $1.55 and I have to call 0.30 to stay in the hand. Divide the amount of $ in the pot by how much you have to call to determine your odds to call. In my case, 1.55/0.30 = 5.1667. This means that the raiser is giving me 5.1667:1 odds to call the hand. And since I need 7.5:1 odds to call he is not giving me the odds to call. Just as a side note, it is OKAY to play against the odds, but only when it is a small bit against them. For instance if you were getting ~ 6.5:1 odds it would be perfectly fine to call. You have implied odds. To keep it simple the implied odds are basically basing your decision (To call or fold) on how much money you think you can win if you hit your set. Implied odds are more of a guesstimate rather than the math of actual odds. If you feel like hypothetically speaking you hit your set and you bet $1 and get two callers you can change your implied odds to 3.55/0.30, which equals to a ratio of 11.833:1, giving you plenty of odds to call. This is, keep in mind, all assuming you will hit your set: So you don’t have odds to call a $1 raise in a pot of $3 because you can think you can make a lot of money if you hit your set. That would be 3:1 odds and is well out of your calling range. Again a good range, or the one I enjoy to play close to is around 6:1 or any higher, assuming no reads on the player of course.
The other thing to consider that I will just mention briefly is that you should always be aware of your position to act on the flop, assuming you make the call. The closer to being the last one to act, the better because you get to see how everyone plays the hands; and if the action gets out of hand before it gets to you, you can escape with relatively little money lost. In my situation, there is only one player to act behind me, but I would be acting out of position to the original raiser, which makes another case for folding. In conclusion to the first hand, I folded.
Earlier I mentioned that part about odds being figured out on average, which is over a very long sample size. So many times I see players, even myself included, play pocket pairs more reckless and ignore the odds because they feel like its “their turn” to hit the set on the flop. I can say from experience that there are days that I have gone 15 and 16 pocket pairs before I hit a set. That being said, there have been days when I have hit what I feel like 40 – 50 % of my sets. However, its just basic Statistics and Probability. When dealing with a particular hand, it’s incredibly important to realize that each hand you play is independent-or different- than of all the others have played. Just because your last 5 pocket pairs missed doesn’t increase your chances of hitting your set on the 6th hand. The cards don’t decide your odds of hitting that set; they are the same every time. You just have to remember that when you get involved with a pocket pair, and especially the low to mid, 2/2–9/9 range.
There are just a few other things that I would like to discuss about playing these pocket pairs but I will try to keep it concise, as I don’t want this to end up longwinded. Another one of the important things to be aware of that often gets overlooked is just being observant of the stacks of everyone involved in the hand before you get involved. This is important because when you are trying to decide whether or not you should call, you need to see if he/she has enough $ left for you to bother playing. If its those $2.00-$2.50 (assuming 10NL) pesky short-stackers are raising into you, it’s safe to assume they aren’t going to raise .40 or .50c with the intention of folding on the flop. They are going to put the rest in after the flop in most cases, and it’s best to avoid them. The easiest way for me to determine whether or not to call is to make sure they have at least 10 times what they raised left behind in order to call. This just makes sure that you aren’t going to get $ involved if there is just not enough to play the odds for.
Lastly, it is important to remember why you are playing the low to mid pocket pair to begin with: Set value. If you don’t flop that set, in almost every situation its best to just fold and save your self the money for when you have a better hand. Now granted, if you can put your opponent, assuming its just you and another player, on a c-bet with put them on overcards then all of a sudden a hand like 88 on a low board like 3 6 7 or even 5 6 9 can be the best hand.
In the end, if you keep yourself level and don’t gamble the odds when you are feeling lucky, etc. you will find that your winning percentage on those pocket pairs will rise.
Okay Let’s discuss a couple of strategies involved with certain pre-flop hands that are very important yet often misunderstood. I’m talking about playing for sets with pocket pairs. Firstly, since my “forte,” if you can call it that, is NLHE, that is what I will focus on that alone. Many people get too attached to this type of hand and call away too much of their money hoping to hit that “miracle” card. The odds to “set up” your 2 paired cards is 7.5/1 for the flop. To explain that in more detail, on average (which is over a very very long period of time) you will catch one of those 2 remaining cards every 7 and a half hands that you receive a pocket pair, and you must play your cards according to the odds. I’m sure some of you if not most already know what I’m referring too. However, this article was intended for the entry/beginning poker player so I will explain further.
I feel like the best way to explain what I’m getting across is an example; here is one of my recent hands that you will see so often in ring game:
Seat 1: ($9.65 in chips)
Seat 2: ($9.85 in chips)
Seat 3: ($9.70 in chips)
Seat 4: ($3.45 in chips) BTN
Seat 5: ($10.05 in chips) SB
Seat 6: ($6.40 in chips) BB
Seat 7: ($3.90 in chips)
Seat 8: ($10 in chips)
Seat 9: lemlywinks ($10.35 in chips)
Seat 5: posts small blind $0.05
Seat 6: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to lemlywinks [5c 5d]
Seat 7: calls $0.10
Seat 8: calls $0.10
Lemlywinks: calls $0.10
Seat 1: calls $0.10
Seat 2: folds
Seat 3: folds
Seat 4: raises $0.30 to $0.40
Seat 5: folds
Seat 6: folds
Seat 7: calls $0.30
Seat 8: calls $0.30
Seat 9: lemlywinks: ???
Okay let’s think this one through. To begin, when I get low to mid pairs like these 5’s I usually try to see a cheap flop, so I just called. Seat 4 raised 4x the blind to 0.40. For the sake of not getting caught up in playing sets against certain types of players, let’s just assume we have no reads on any of these players. Seats 7 & 8 call the raise. It’s to us now, and what do we do? We need to look at the size of the pot and determine if we have the odds to make the call. This is simple. You just need to count up all the current amount of $ in the pot. Here we had a pot of $1.55 and I have to call 0.30 to stay in the hand. Divide the amount of $ in the pot by how much you have to call to determine your odds to call. In my case, 1.55/0.30 = 5.1667. This means that the raiser is giving me 5.1667:1 odds to call the hand. And since I need 7.5:1 odds to call he is not giving me the odds to call. Just as a side note, it is OKAY to play against the odds, but only when it is a small bit against them. For instance if you were getting ~ 6.5:1 odds it would be perfectly fine to call. You have implied odds. To keep it simple the implied odds are basically basing your decision (To call or fold) on how much money you think you can win if you hit your set. Implied odds are more of a guesstimate rather than the math of actual odds. If you feel like hypothetically speaking you hit your set and you bet $1 and get two callers you can change your implied odds to 3.55/0.30, which equals to a ratio of 11.833:1, giving you plenty of odds to call. This is, keep in mind, all assuming you will hit your set: So you don’t have odds to call a $1 raise in a pot of $3 because you can think you can make a lot of money if you hit your set. That would be 3:1 odds and is well out of your calling range. Again a good range, or the one I enjoy to play close to is around 6:1 or any higher, assuming no reads on the player of course.
The other thing to consider that I will just mention briefly is that you should always be aware of your position to act on the flop, assuming you make the call. The closer to being the last one to act, the better because you get to see how everyone plays the hands; and if the action gets out of hand before it gets to you, you can escape with relatively little money lost. In my situation, there is only one player to act behind me, but I would be acting out of position to the original raiser, which makes another case for folding. In conclusion to the first hand, I folded.
Earlier I mentioned that part about odds being figured out on average, which is over a very long sample size. So many times I see players, even myself included, play pocket pairs more reckless and ignore the odds because they feel like its “their turn” to hit the set on the flop. I can say from experience that there are days that I have gone 15 and 16 pocket pairs before I hit a set. That being said, there have been days when I have hit what I feel like 40 – 50 % of my sets. However, its just basic Statistics and Probability. When dealing with a particular hand, it’s incredibly important to realize that each hand you play is independent-or different- than of all the others have played. Just because your last 5 pocket pairs missed doesn’t increase your chances of hitting your set on the 6th hand. The cards don’t decide your odds of hitting that set; they are the same every time. You just have to remember that when you get involved with a pocket pair, and especially the low to mid, 2/2–9/9 range.
There are just a few other things that I would like to discuss about playing these pocket pairs but I will try to keep it concise, as I don’t want this to end up longwinded. Another one of the important things to be aware of that often gets overlooked is just being observant of the stacks of everyone involved in the hand before you get involved. This is important because when you are trying to decide whether or not you should call, you need to see if he/she has enough $ left for you to bother playing. If its those $2.00-$2.50 (assuming 10NL) pesky short-stackers are raising into you, it’s safe to assume they aren’t going to raise .40 or .50c with the intention of folding on the flop. They are going to put the rest in after the flop in most cases, and it’s best to avoid them. The easiest way for me to determine whether or not to call is to make sure they have at least 10 times what they raised left behind in order to call. This just makes sure that you aren’t going to get $ involved if there is just not enough to play the odds for.
Lastly, it is important to remember why you are playing the low to mid pocket pair to begin with: Set value. If you don’t flop that set, in almost every situation its best to just fold and save your self the money for when you have a better hand. Now granted, if you can put your opponent, assuming its just you and another player, on a c-bet with put them on overcards then all of a sudden a hand like 88 on a low board like 3 6 7 or even 5 6 9 can be the best hand.
In the end, if you keep yourself level and don’t gamble the odds when you are feeling lucky, etc. you will find that your winning percentage on those pocket pairs will rise.
A few questions about this lemly (they are not statements).
1. I thought the odds to flop a set was 12:1?
2. I could be wrong here (most probably I am) but do you not think you have implied odds here with 2 x 40BBs stacks and 1 100BBs stack. If you hit your set do you not think you will get paid off at least by one of the shorter stacks? If it was just the two 40BBs stacks I would probably fold preflop but with the 100BB stack aswell I lean towards a call here, plus I have position. I know I wont be able to push 3 others off hands here but it makes it alot easier if I hit a set.
General questions
1.What sort of odds is good for your money when in these situations and for example open ended straight draws on the turn when both stacks are 100BBs deep facing a $4 bet into an $8 pot.
I mean its very rough idea but im really unsure about odds I think I should watch the DC maths series but just dont have time at the mo with all my assignments on.
1. I thought the odds to flop a set was 12:1?
2. I could be wrong here (most probably I am) but do you not think you have implied odds here with 2 x 40BBs stacks and 1 100BBs stack. If you hit your set do you not think you will get paid off at least by one of the shorter stacks? If it was just the two 40BBs stacks I would probably fold preflop but with the 100BB stack aswell I lean towards a call here, plus I have position. I know I wont be able to push 3 others off hands here but it makes it alot easier if I hit a set.
General questions
1.What sort of odds is good for your money when in these situations and for example open ended straight draws on the turn when both stacks are 100BBs deep facing a $4 bet into an $8 pot.
I mean its very rough idea but im really unsure about odds I think I should watch the DC maths series but just dont have time at the mo with all my assignments on.
Jake do you know the rule of 4/2? it's very simplistic approach to it. Basically you add your outs for drawing to the winning hand and multiply it by 4 if your gonna see the turn/river with all you money in to get your % chance of hitting your outs, or if you just want the odds for 1 street, then multiply it by 2.
SO in your example if you have an oesd, then you have 8 outs so if you want to call one street then you have ~ 16% chance of hitting your card. If your in an all in scenrario and are going to get to sees both streets then you have 4*8 outs ~ 32% chance of hitting your outs.
SO in your example if you have an oesd, then you have 8 outs so if you want to call one street then you have ~ 16% chance of hitting your card. If your in an all in scenrario and are going to get to sees both streets then you have 4*8 outs ~ 32% chance of hitting your outs.
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Jake with regards to your questions on the hand I guess it was a little bit closer of a decision based on implied odds than I had originally thought, and while I really think that in my instance either would have worked I decided to fold just to give an example of letting something go strictly when the math odds aren't in your favor.
With my example I did want to point out that I didn't feel like I had position like you said. The original raiser was the dealer seat, and he would be last to act on the flop. Also, there is still Seat 1 left to act in our decision. If we assume he calls, then I will be 3rd to act out of 5 players, kindof in middle position but still to act before the raiser.
Also, Jagsti that's a great point, and one I haven't even thought of. It is very simple though and definitely makes calculating the odds of a hand you aren't sure of easy.
Lastly, to any of the players that feel like there are mistakes in here, please don't hesitate to critique, it will help me get an even better grasp on the ideas that way.
With my example I did want to point out that I didn't feel like I had position like you said. The original raiser was the dealer seat, and he would be last to act on the flop. Also, there is still Seat 1 left to act in our decision. If we assume he calls, then I will be 3rd to act out of 5 players, kindof in middle position but still to act before the raiser.
Also, Jagsti that's a great point, and one I haven't even thought of. It is very simple though and definitely makes calculating the odds of a hand you aren't sure of easy.
Lastly, to any of the players that feel like there are mistakes in here, please don't hesitate to critique, it will help me get an even better grasp on the ideas that way.
Jagsti said:
It's an extremely useful rule. if you want a more accurate thing, you can take a look at this:
http://www.texasholdem-poker.com/odds_chart
but it's not that different.
Stu_Ungar said:
Depends, do you mean Agression Factor or Aggression Frequency.
Aggression Factor is how often you [bet+raise]/call. So the higher the number the more aggressive (ie, likely to bet or raise) your opponent is.
I am not sure about Frequency?
Besides there are way better/smarter people than me who can help you here 🙂
Jagsti said:
If you are 100% sure they have a higher pocket pair, 100% sure they will not fold when you hit a set, and aren't going to try to win the pot no matter the flop unless you hit a set, and you are stacking 100% of flops where you have a set, you need 11.7:1 I believe.
Realistically you need more if you're going to strictly set mine but you can discount it by a bit if you think you can win some pots without hitting your set.
sindri_93 said:
I'm mostly raising Ajs+, 88+, I'm not sure what to do when I have a pretty decent hand like QJ, KJ,a10 (suited or unsuited) folding that in lp to a limp just feels really weak, as does overlimping.
I guess it's pretty marginal though, maybe i could adjust my raise size or something, where im not half committed
Wow, I really like the way you explain things zac; that math makes sense.
Now a question, I have not been giving myself that much implied odds, but rather somewhere around the range of calling with 9.0-9.5:1
Am i playing the pocket pairs too little or is it just better for, I guess for lack of a better word "inexperienced" players like myself to air on the side of caution?
Now a question, I have not been giving myself that much implied odds, but rather somewhere around the range of calling with 9.0-9.5:1
Am i playing the pocket pairs too little or is it just better for, I guess for lack of a better word "inexperienced" players like myself to air on the side of caution?
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I am running so bad at 25NL. I can't stand it. I can't count the buyins i've dropped with hands like this.
PokerStars Game #25899755025: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2009/03/12 22:08:59 ET
Table 'Piccolo' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Usurpov ($26 in chips)
Seat 2: denisriver ($11.90 in chips)
Seat 3: llundin123 ($12.65 in chips)
Seat 4: yyeeahh ($5.15 in chips)
Seat 5: Buzzkiller1 ($17.40 in chips)
Seat 6: Motze180 ($4.30 in chips)
Seat 7: nhartle ($35.80 in chips)
Seat 8: msna ($28.90 in chips)
Seat 9: Chiefer77 ($24.25 in chips)
denisriver: posts small blind $0.10
llundin123: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Chiefer77 [As Ad]
yyeeahh: folds
Buzzkiller1: folds
Motze180: folds
nhartle: raises $0.75 to $1
msna: folds
Chiefer77: raises $1 to $2
Usurpov: folds
denisriver: folds
llundin123: folds
nhartle: raises $3 to $5
Chiefer77: raises $5 to $10
nhartle: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [5c 8s 4c]
nhartle: bets $22
Chiefer77: calls $14.25 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($7.75) returned to nhartle
*** TURN *** [5c 8s 4c] [Ac]
*** RIVER *** [5c 8s 4c Ac] [3c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
nhartle: shows [Kc Kh] (a flush, Ace high)
Chiefer77: mucks hand
nhartle collected $46.50 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $48.85 | Rake $2.35
Board [5c 8s 4c Ac 3c]
Seat 1: Usurpov (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: denisriver (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: llundin123 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: yyeeahh folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Buzzkiller1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Motze180 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: nhartle showed [Kc Kh] and won ($46.50) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 8: msna folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Chiefer77 mucked [As Ad]
PokerStars Game #25899755025: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2009/03/12 22:08:59 ET
Table 'Piccolo' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Usurpov ($26 in chips)
Seat 2: denisriver ($11.90 in chips)
Seat 3: llundin123 ($12.65 in chips)
Seat 4: yyeeahh ($5.15 in chips)
Seat 5: Buzzkiller1 ($17.40 in chips)
Seat 6: Motze180 ($4.30 in chips)
Seat 7: nhartle ($35.80 in chips)
Seat 8: msna ($28.90 in chips)
Seat 9: Chiefer77 ($24.25 in chips)
denisriver: posts small blind $0.10
llundin123: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Chiefer77 [As Ad]
yyeeahh: folds
Buzzkiller1: folds
Motze180: folds
nhartle: raises $0.75 to $1
msna: folds
Chiefer77: raises $1 to $2
Usurpov: folds
denisriver: folds
llundin123: folds
nhartle: raises $3 to $5
Chiefer77: raises $5 to $10
nhartle: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [5c 8s 4c]
nhartle: bets $22
Chiefer77: calls $14.25 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($7.75) returned to nhartle
*** TURN *** [5c 8s 4c] [Ac]
*** RIVER *** [5c 8s 4c Ac] [3c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
nhartle: shows [Kc Kh] (a flush, Ace high)
Chiefer77: mucks hand
nhartle collected $46.50 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $48.85 | Rake $2.35
Board [5c 8s 4c Ac 3c]
Seat 1: Usurpov (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: denisriver (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: llundin123 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: yyeeahh folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Buzzkiller1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Motze180 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: nhartle showed [Kc Kh] and won ($46.50) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 8: msna folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Chiefer77 mucked [As Ad]