The level of Freebuy Bronze participants shocked me.

GTOSunRun

GTOSunRun

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Hi all!

I was looking forward to playing the Bronze Freebuy as an experienced MTT player, especially because freeroll fields tend to be very soft and players often call far too wide.

Very early in the tournament I picked up my first hand, AK and got involved in a hand that surprised me even by freeroll standards.

Hand history:

UTG+1 limps 1bb [Th X]
I am in LJ (LoJack) and isolate to 4bb [As Kd]
CO (Cutoff) calls 4bb [Ks 7d]
BTN (Button) calls 4bb [Ad 6c]
BB (Big Blind) shoves all-in for ~50bb [7h 5h]

LJ (me) calls ~50bb [As Kd]
CO then puts in ~55bb total [Ks 7d]
BTN calls ~51bb [Ad 6c]

So we end up in a 4-way all-in while everyone still has a very playable stack, far above normal short-stack shove/fold territory.

I think this hand is a good example of why understanding ranges, domination and stack depth is so important.

My 4bb isolation raise over the UTG+1 limp should already represent a reasonably strong range. Because of that, the K7o flat from the CO is very loose. K7o suffers badly from domination and reverse implied odds: when it makes top pair, it can easily be against AK, KQ, KJ, etc.

The A6o flat from the BTN is also far too loose for similar reasons. A weak offsuit ace can easily make a dominated top pair against an isolation range.

Then the BB shoves around 50bb with 75s.

I think this is by far the biggest problem in the hand. 75s is a playable speculative hand in some situations, but turning it into a ~50bb squeeze shove against an isolation raise and two callers is extremely aggressive.

Interestingly, simply calling from the BB is much more defensible. After the limp, my 4bb raise and two callers, the BB only needs to add roughly another 3bb to enter a pot that will be around 17–18bb, depending on the exact ante structure.

That means the direct equity requirement is only around 17%, before considering postflop equity realization. With a connected suited hand like 75s, calling can therefore be reasonable.

But shoving ~50bb is a completely different decision.

The most important part then happens after the BB shove.

Once I call the ~50bb shove with AK, my range is obviously no longer the same wide isolation range I started with. My call should heavily concentrate toward strong hands.

This is where players need to understand that every new action changes the ranges involved.

K7o continuing for ~55bb after a 50bb shove AND my call is extremely difficult to justify. It is very often dominated and performs terribly against the ranges that should continue here.

A6o calling after the shove, my call, and the K7o continuation is even more problematic. By that point there are multiple players showing enormous strength, so A6o should expect to be dominated very frequently.

I am deliberately not looking at the final result of the hand when judging these decisions.

Results and variance do not determine whether a play was good or bad. What matters is whether the decision was profitable based on the information and ranges available at the moment the decision was made.

I am also not posting this to shame any of the players or complain about the result. I care much more about decision quality than whether I happened to win the hand.

I thought this was simply a useful example for newer players of how quickly ranges should narrow as more aggressive actions take place.

A hand can be playable before the action starts and become an easy fold after a raise, a shove and a call.

That is especially important when you still have 20bb, 30bb, 50bb+ stacks. Those stacks are highly playable. You do not need to take enormous marginal preflop gambles when you can preserve your stack and find much better opportunities through position, postflop play and exploitation of weaker opponents.

Curious to hear how others would analyse the different decisions in this hand.
 

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GTOSunRun said:
Hi All!

I was thrilled to take on the field of the freebuy, as an experienced player. I registered and ran my first hand to play in AK, to a very soft light calling field (all freerolls), I know to overplay these hands. The outcome was even for freeroll level shocking.

Find attached hand history.

UTG+1 limps 1bb [10hX]
I am in LJ (LoJack) and bet to 4bb [AsKd]
CO (Cut off) calls 4bb [Ks7d]
BTN (Button) calls 4bb [Ad6c]
BB (Big Blind) shoves all-in ~ 50bb [7h5h]

LJ (me) calls ~50bb [AsKd]
CO (Cut off) shoves ~55bb [Ks7d]
BTN (Button) calls ~51bb [Ad6c]

4-way all-in with a very playable stack way above 20-30bb range.

The only correct hand played here is mine (AK).

You can't profitable limp 10x UTG+1
When I do isolation bet to 4bb that is a strong range.
For K7o to flat is terrible, as you're often beat by kicker or overpair.
Even worse A6o flat after all this action.
Then BB decides to go all-in with 75s, which is also very bad but considering K7o and A6o flats on a iso bet I consider a sort of connected suited hand as stronger. However, BB could have flat, as he actually gets good equity/pot odds to call the 3 extra bb for a total pot of estimated 18bb pot after call. So that is 3 in 18, you would need roughly 16% equity for profitable call with 75s might be ok.

But all-in .. nah, and then all hands decide to call, after my snap, they need to know the ranges are not as wide anymore.

K7o calling a double all-in with 55bb is outrageous, and A6o calling all-in with 3 all-ins in front of him/her is even worse.

Now, looking result oriented or variance based is bad. So, I only look at all the moves made by others are -EV / bad.

I post this not to shame anyone, not to cry about my beat, as I only care about improving and as long it goes in correctly im fine.

This is just to shed some light to it for the new players, to understand why and what is bad.

20bb+ stack is very playable, and you should search for better spots where you can play postflop/navigate through exploit and get better spots.
Yes , every Bronze tournament regardless of pokerroom is a big fishtank since its basically free for all.

In silver and platinum freerolls at GG, you will encounter only a fraction of the amount of players in the bronze games.
Between 120-200 players max
 
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Bronze CC tournaments are open world fields, since you only need an account here on CC to get the password, or a good password distribution site on the internet.

You played fine(got it in as favorite) but you did not view the numbers at each player the "winner" had a "flashing" 71 by his side so he played nearly 3/4 of his hands at the time you made your move. With such a player behind and a lot of multiway hands at the table your goal is to not play AK AQ AJ or any other hand thats needs to hit(these hands may have showdown value in heads up pots but not multiway), you should play pure value(a very small linear range) mostly. Even with this hands you may only have a 50-60 % change to survive the early AI stage of such big field freerolls.

These Freerolls are like playing the national lottery in nearly every phase of the tournament.
 
Sadly the majority that play any freeroll just don't care, will never care or take them seriously as there's no buy-in so they didn't have to spend any money. When people don't have to spend money on something no matter what it is they NEVER care about it and that thing never has value. You give most people something for nothing and they don't care about it as much as they would have had they had to pay for it.

With that said CC Platinum freerolls play like micro stakes MTT's(which is a small bit better)......but even there many still just don't care about such a small buy-in and will call with anything and everything.

Cheers!!!
 
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Why did you select to play this particular game, if you are an experienced MTT player? Its essentially a public freeroll, since the passwords are available for anyone, who have created an account in the forum. As others have said, the level of play is somewhat higher in the silver and platinum games. When a large field compete for a small price pool, and its free to enter, you will always see people using a "go strong or go home" strategy and try to gamble up a big stack early on. Others might do the opposite and sit-out the whole time trying to fold into a min-cash. Both these strategies make sense, because they save time. GG Poker have a ton of other tournaments, so maybe play them instead.
 
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An experienced mtt player would write such a WOT about a public freeroll with a 20 cent mincash, trying to analyze hands and stuff? Am i missing something here?
 
Fair play for your detailed analysis of this hand, but its just a massive field freeroll, not worth playing to most reasonably serious members of the forum.

The time and effort of the tournament is not really worth it, neither is the time spent thinking about hands in these tournaments!

Get yourself to Silver then platinum level and you'll find more worthwhile hands to post and recieve feedback on! Good luck
 
Also while there is a lot of better answers then mine on the thread I need to note that sometimes especially if this happen very early in the tournament some people just will lob it in for the speed factor they either get a big stack or dont (sometimes stats might be in advantage for some hands to go nuts in this kind of 4-way all in situation, if you are expecting many high cards etc (maybe not in this case, but sometimes)).

Luckily you usually wont see those later in tournaments, atleast these kinds of massive multiplayer all in's. But the best weird hand involving 2 players I have had was out of 4k player pool there were 600 ish players left. My stack is roughly 140k (it was top50 stack tier) and at same table is a 170k ish stack. I get :as4::kc4: at early position and raise to a I think 6k, where as chip the large stack 3-bets to 20k. I think for a while and go all in and the chip leader calls with :7h4::3d4: (this was all preflop).. And well the chip leader sadly won that hand. Sometimes people just play wild.
 
It's freeroll => people do not pay a cent for it. Not everyone intends to spend 2 hours or so and win nothing or almost nothing. Someone may be happy just to drop a stack into the middle with random hand and either loose or double+ up and perhaps then consider playing more seriously.
 
Unfortunately, open-to-everyone Poker tournaments like the Bronze are complete trash, the game boils down to a big blackjack, if you want to develop your skills, I recommend playing only the Silver and Platinum levels, these reflect real tournaments, don't be fooled by comments from people saying these levels are similar to Micro Stake, I've played 50 USD and 109 USD tournaments, even those are full of maniacs doing insane things, if you play only the Silver and Platinum you can develop your skills and put advanced concepts into practice.
 
Freeroll poker tourneys are not like videogames.

The skill level doesn't get better at the higher forum status freerolls

You will still see players calling with any two cards hoping to hit and they usually do.

1000024996
 
Goggelheimer said:
Bronze CC tournaments are open world fields, since you only need an account here on CC to get the password, or a good password distribution site on the internet.

You played fine(got it in as favorite) but you did not view the numbers at each player the "winner" had a "flashing" 71 by his side so he played nearly 3/4 of his hands at the time you made your move. With such a player behind and a lot of multiway hands at the table your goal is to not play AK AQ AJ or any other hand thats needs to hit(these hands may have showdown value in heads up pots but not multiway), you should play pure value(a very small linear range) mostly. Even with this hands you may only have a 50-60 % change to survive the early AI stage of such big field freerolls.

These Freerolls are like playing the national lottery in nearly every phase of the tournament.
Oh I certainly disagree, we should keep in mind that it is a soft field. But im not result oriented. I had around 40% in a 4-way pot, I would take that any day of the week.

It's not about what if everyone calls, and im also not a beginner that stick to AK like its godly. I fold a lot of top pairs and JJ / QQ / KK and sometimes AA depending on ranges, tendencies and board structure.

Simply saying they are bad and going to call more often, wont limit me to only small ball postflop plays and exclude me from having the best edge in all in. Because postflop they will be sticky as well, my goal is not to reach ITM I want to have weopons to fight and get top 3.
 
fundiver199 said:
Why did you select to play this particular game, if you are an experienced MTT player? Its essentially a public freeroll, since the passwords are available for anyone, who have created an account in the forum. As others have said, the level of play is somewhat higher in the silver and platinum games. When a large field compete for a small price pool, and its free to enter, you will always see people using a "go strong or go home" strategy and try to gamble up a big stack early on. Others might do the opposite and sit-out the whole time trying to fold into a min-cash. Both these strategies make sense, because they save time. GG Poker have a ton of other tournaments, so maybe play them instead.
I play a lot of GG lowstakes MTT and I am making tons of deep runs. However, as part of a learning curve, I wanted to go from freeroll scratch to building bankroll to see what is possible, that is also why I joined Cards Chat. I already noticed the average level of knowledge here is lower then for instance on 2+2, I do a ton of hand analyzis. Played for many years with good results.

The reason I post is because I already tried using the freeroll as bankroll booster in my attempt, and I thought it might be helpful or a learning experience for less experienced players. To make them understand why you can use that free shot better.

Thanks!
 
GTOSunRun said:
Oh I certainly disagree, we should keep in mind that it is a soft field. But im not result oriented. I had around 40% in a 4-way pot, I would take that any day of the week.

It's not about what if everyone calls, and im also not a beginner that stick to AK like its godly. I fold a lot of top pairs and JJ / QQ / KK and sometimes AA depending on ranges, tendencies and board structure.

Simply saying they are bad and going to call more often, wont limit me to only small ball postflop plays and exclude me from having the best edge in all in. Because postflop they will be sticky as well, my goal is not to reach ITM I want to have weopons to fight and get top 3.
1791797632985

41% may sound really nice but you only have showdown value meaning none of the other three players has live cards that can destroy your showdown value, but 7, 6, and 5 are live and your A and K are somewhat limited in their outs.

Calculate that situation in a simple $2 Cash Game with all players going AI for 100 BB. How much money will you loose with your 41% over lets say a very long run of 10.000.000 hands? This also applies to tournament poker how many rebuys would you like to pay?

Is 41% really favorite? Your chance to win is 41% vs. 59%.
You are no favorite against a combined range, you are behind against a combined range.
This is one effect of thinking in ranges, think in ranges not in hands.

Rethink the situation twice, this is a mindset strengthening situation.

And remind yourself not all players are "CC trained" players, not saying that all are top notch.
All sorts of players are in these fields, as said open world fields are a minefield.
I estimate at least 50% of the players in the bronze CC tournaments at GG - Poker are not CC members.
Free money is a big honey pot.

And last to say tournament poker is more about strategy than only saying I have 41% chance to win you also have 59% chance to lose your tournament life.
 
Goggelheimer said:
View attachment 418652

41% may sound really nice but you only have showdown value meaning none of the other three players has live cards that can destroy your showdown value, but 7, 6, and 5 are live and your A and K are somewhat limited in their outs.

Calculate that situation in a simple $2 Cash Game with all players going AI for 100 BB. How much money will you loose with your 41% over lets say a very long run of 10.000.000 hands? This also applies to tournament poker how many rebuys would you like to pay?

Is 41% really favorite? Your chance to win is 41% vs. 59%.
You are no favorite against a combined range, you are behind against a combined range.
This is one effect of thinking in ranges, think in ranges not in hands.

Rethink the situation twice, this is a mindset strengthening situation.

And remind yourself not all players are "CC trained" players, not saying that all are top notch.
All sorts of players are in these fields, as said open world fields are a minefield.
I estimate at least 50% of the players in the bronze CC tournaments at GG - Poker are not CC members.
Free money is a big honey pot.

And last to say tournament poker is more about strategy than only saying I have 41% chance to win you also have 59% chance to lose your tournament life.
Still completely disagree.

You see only you have 59% chance to lose.
You think in ranges and then everything stops ..? What about calculating equity?

You are forgetting that it goes in with 3 other players. I am investing 8k to win 32k, in simple math for equity I need 25% equity to make the call profitable.

If you are rather folding this spot because you are out 59% of the time, and compare this to hard cashgame fact, then as matter a fact you can better stop playing MTT.

The variance in MTT is huge, if you dont like 41% chance to quadripple your stack you are losing so much EV on long term, unless you are playing for min cashes and busts in top 15-20% of the field.

I am hitting deep runs almost every session I play. And I mean top 5% of the field or better.

I just busted the Bounty 2.50 field size 578 player. Just before final table I had TT vs 88 for near chiplead stack. And two hands later JJ to AA.

Final table I had 2 no showdown steals and JJ in all folds. Had to fold 30 carddead hands and end up getting 44 in perfectly.

Life of the MTT player.. but we dont look at result, we looo at did we play +EV for long term profits.
 

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This is exactly what I was reffering to when I said the skill level doesn't get any better at the higher status freerolls.

Double paired board + 2x pot overbet

How can u call this

1000025750

1000025749
 
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Goggelheimer said:
You are GOAT and I have another ignore.

I guess I am GOAT. They got me down badly though... of course last 8 player with a 7 man FT we get a 2 outer river for big bounty and chiplead for Ft. Then another flip right after.. and we get on FT from 10m to 5m stack, last all in flop was very juicy too, but oh well, we tried! Two final tables today.
 

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