I play a lot of tournaments and find the closer i get to placing in the money, people start take as much time as they can. I assume the strategy is let the shorter stacks or just other ppl lose so u place. So my question is do u think this is right or wrong strategy? Smart move or not?
Kenzie 96 said:
yep. If you think you are one of the better players at the table, then you want to see hands. Theoretically, if you are +EV then that edge can be broken down to a per hand gain...so on average you might gain 30chips per hand or something like that. So, to maximize your edge you'd want to see more hands.
If you decide to stall your way into the money; then you are essentially saying 1 of 2 things:
#1) I may not be one of the better players at the table, so my per hand equity is negative, so the fewer hands I see the more I will preserve my stack to make it into the money.
#2) I may be one of the better players at the table, and I stand to win chips by playing more hands, but I am choosing to forego that edge and lower my risk and lower my reward in favor of the relative safety of min cashing.
Either can be an acceptable strategy based on your relative skill level and your goals. For instance I think I'm a good player, but sometimes I find myself at a tough table where I think I'm outclassed. So, I change my strategy as a response and instead of trying to play lots of small pots, I try and play a few big or medium pots. If I'm short stacked to the point of push/fold poker, and I feel I'm outclassed at the table, and we are on the bubble but there are several other players that are also short stacked then I'm not in a big hurry to make my decisions.
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Stalling is terrible...
You only hurt yourself as a short stack by stalling, u need to double up and it doesn't really do anything anyways since yes u see less hands and get hit by the blinds slower but when u do get hit the blinds go up and now you've been hit by the same amount of blinds with less of a chance to double up.
You only hurt yourself as a short stack by stalling, u need to double up and it doesn't really do anything anyways since yes u see less hands and get hit by the blinds slower but when u do get hit the blinds go up and now you've been hit by the same amount of blinds with less of a chance to double up.
I very rarely stall since I am not usually playing to min cash but rather to accumulate chips to make a run at the final table. The one exception would be if I was in a tournament that I had won a satellite to that is way above the stakes I usually play and the money bubble would give me a decent chunk of change with a min cash.
I once parlayed a $1 tournament into a $100 dollar buy-in to a weekly major tournament on Carbon and got skittish when I got near the money bubble in that one since the $185 that the bubble brought was better than many of the $1 and $2 guarantees give out for first place. I managed to min cash and the money helped fix up my bankroll.
I once parlayed a $1 tournament into a $100 dollar buy-in to a weekly major tournament on Carbon and got skittish when I got near the money bubble in that one since the $185 that the bubble brought was better than many of the $1 and $2 guarantees give out for first place. I managed to min cash and the money helped fix up my bankroll.
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When you stall, it doesn't just screw yourself, it screws everyone at the table. Also, if all of the other tables are stalling too, it becomes a race to the bottom and nobody wins.
You can tell how many fish are at the tables when you've entered hand for hand play on the bubble and everybody is still stalling.
You can tell how many fish are at the tables when you've entered hand for hand play on the bubble and everybody is still stalling.
If you need the money that badly then it is wise, so you can make the money, but I am not a fan because the hand is going to play out like it normally would and in some instances you might blind yourself out by not wanting to play.. I have seen it work and I have seen it backfire, ultimately play the cards at a nice pace, I think it is rude when you do not..
I wasn't sure what to make of stalling when I first saw the discussions about it, and when it was passed down as advice. I would have to agree that it's a real bs move. It's exactly the reason why hand-for-hand play exists. I prefer to play my hands, and I prefer taking control of the right pots, and if I'm the short stack at the table at the bubble, my only two moves are all in or fold. If I'm the big stack, I'm not stalling, if I'm the medium stack I'm not stalling, if I'm the short stack, fold or all in. I use the clock to review notes not stall.
S3mper said:
so....just playing devil's advocate here. But if your opponent could do something that takes EV away from the other players at the table, then doesn't he by definition gain from that action? the EV has to go SOMEWHERE right? It doesn't just disappear.
I agree stalling is annoying. I pretty much never do it, but I can see how there would be situations where it's not terrible.
The closest I'll come to stalling is in a live tourney keeping my eye on the other tables and not acting any faster than the other players. For instance, there is this live dealer Matt who I like a lot. He deals at wsop and other high profile events. He is extremely fast....like maybe twice as fast as other dealers, and that's really nice for live play. However, when it gets bubbly he'll announce to the table "OK, I'm going to slow down to a normal speed for you guys" and he'll just deal at the same pace as the other dealers. That is a really nice gesture when you've been grinding for 12 hours and now what happens in the next 5 or 6 hands is going to be extremely important...you don't want to play 12 hands in the same time every other table is playing 6 hands thereby doubling your variance on the bubble....
lol at the comment about fish who still stall when it's hand for hand!
missjacki said:
Correct, the EV goes to the players that are either at tables that aren't stalling or to the players who go on a heater and pick up a few pots. By stalling he is only increasing his chances of min cashing (sometimes) but is rarely increasing his chances of top 3 which is -EV long term. We simply don't cash enough to be min cashing consistently for a profit.
Of course I know you know this and am just backing my previous post =)
<3
I agree with you guys that stalling is annoying .But i have done it a few times especially in freerolls when im on the bubble and have a small stack(only at sites that dont hand 4 hand),Which brings up an interesting question, does anyone have any idea why some sites dont do hand 4 hand and others do.
123andyp123 said:
The only sites I know of not doing hand for hand are on WPN (America's Cardroom, Black Chip poker, and one other)
I don't know why they do not have it. I have suggested that they change it in the Official ACR thread and in an email before that thread came up.
Hopefully they will change it.
Hi. I can give you one example where I would stall.
Imagine if you were playing an satelite event and there were 9 seats to the WSOP main event. There were 10 players left and I had the 2nd shortest stack left in the tourney. The other table where the short stack was going to be in the bb next hand. I would play slowly so he had the chance to bust before I did. Irrespective of my hand.
I think you may understand my situation here, this would be the only time I played slowly!!!
Perhaps the tourney would be hand-to-hand by then. I think his is the only time you would be justified playing slow.
Interesting reading on this forum, I am really enjoying it. Thanks all. And good luck :trytofly: 🙂 😀 😉
Imagine if you were playing an satelite event and there were 9 seats to the WSOP main event. There were 10 players left and I had the 2nd shortest stack left in the tourney. The other table where the short stack was going to be in the bb next hand. I would play slowly so he had the chance to bust before I did. Irrespective of my hand.
I think you may understand my situation here, this would be the only time I played slowly!!!
Perhaps the tourney would be hand-to-hand by then. I think his is the only time you would be justified playing slow.
Interesting reading on this forum, I am really enjoying it. Thanks all. And good luck :trytofly: 🙂 😀 😉
Marcwantstowin said:
I do understand. There are times where it's not a bad strategy depending on the exact stack set ups. Obviously it is a known "loophole" in the system which is why most places have enacted hand for hand.
Say what you like about having an edge...but edge or no edge the more hands you see on the bubble will also increase your variance. It just will.
Let me give you a different situation. You're on the bubble. There are 11 players and 2 tables left. top 10 get paid. You are the 3rd shortest stack and the 2 other short stacks are at the other table, and they are obviously both stalling every hand. So, if you DON'T stall then you're not on an even playing field and they directly benefit by increasing your variance. Like it or not, stalling exists in tournament poker. It may be annoying but it is a strategy that others employ and so to simply say "I'm a good player, I want to see more hands" is really just oversimplifying a complex bubble dynamic.
I'd liken this to resume fluffing. If everyone else is fluffing their resumes, then you come in with a purely factual resume with no euphemisms or exaggerations, then while you may be preserving your integrity, you are not "playing the game" and you may get passed over for an important interview.
The world is what it is, and it's up to us thinking and logical players to adjust. stalling on the bubble happens and always will happen. It is part of tournament poker.
well I have made the money plenty of times by stalling because the bigstacks are pushing out the low stacks knowing we cant call and if we do call we are most likely ahead but still not far enough ahead so any call can be your last so this depends if you want to make the money or not so I prefer stalling until I hit the money then go back to normall play and it seems to settle in after the money hits cause the bigstacks know they will get called now that everybody has made the money so the bullying slows down.