MicroCrushers Thread!!!!!

[Yoshimiii]

Good double barreling opportunity to get him off pocket pairs/flush draws on the turn right?
Villain stats: 29/22/3.3 over 88 hands

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

Hero (SB) ($34.21)
BB ($30.95)
UTG ($27.51)
MP ($29.59)
Button ($25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q

, A

2 folds, Button bets $0.75, Hero raises to $2.25, 1 fold, Button calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.75) 5

, 9

, 2

(2 players)
Hero bets $2.75, Button calls $2.75

Turn: ($10.25) K

(2 players)
Hero bets $5.75, Button raises to $20 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $21.75 | Rake: $0.98

Also:
Villain stats: 29/27/12.0 over 58 hands, his aggression seems ridiculously high but seen as it's 58 hands only I disregarded it.
Looks like a slowplayed Full house as I think he would 3 bet 10/J on the flop and we still lose to it anyway.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

MP ($18.77)
Hero (Button) ($25)
SB ($29.95)
BB ($28.90)
UTG ($27.79)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9

, K

2 folds, Hero bets $0.75, 1 fold, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.60) 9

, 9

, 8

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1, BB calls $1

Turn: ($3.60) 7

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2, BB raises to $6.60, Hero calls $4.60

River: ($16.80) Q

(2 players)
BB bets $20.55 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $16.80 | Rake: $0.76

Results below:

Spoiler

BB didn't show

 

[pocketehs]

im still struggling to beat 10NL consistently. anyone want to share a breakthrough moment that helped them get out of 10NL?

Will be uploading a video tomorrow hopefully

 

[Matt Vaughan]

What do we think, vs a loose passive 36/4 over 142 hands.

IPoker, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players

SB: $20.17 (100.9 bb)
BB: $16.31 (81.5 bb)
Hero (MP): $33.57 (167.9 bb)
CO: $3.09 (15.5 bb)
BTN: $31 (155 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q

K

Hero raises to $0.60, 3 folds, BB calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.30) 8

K

K

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.97, BB calls $0.97

Turn: ($3.24) J

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2, BB calls $2

River: ($7.24) 5

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3.62, BB raises to $12.74, Hero ... ?

You have to call 9 to win 36, you're getting 4:1 on your money so I think I call and pray he has a weaker Kx hand, or badly played aces or queens or something.

He has a boat a lot of the time but the odds are inviting.

Erm where are you getting 36 from?? I see that he needs to call $9.12 to win $29.10 -> 3.2:1.

But yeah I'm not folding cause we only need to be good roughly 1 in 4 times, and he over-values Kx here imo. Plus as stated, calling is waaaay more fun than folding

 

[duggs]

What do we think, vs a loose passive 36/4 over 142 hands.

IPoker, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players

SB: $20.17 (100.9 bb)
BB: $16.31 (81.5 bb)
Hero (MP): $33.57 (167.9 bb)
CO: $3.09 (15.5 bb)
BTN: $31 (155 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q

K

Hero raises to $0.60, 3 folds, BB calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.30) 8

K

K

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.97, BB calls $0.97

Turn: ($3.24) J

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2, BB calls $2

River: ($7.24) 5

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3.62, BB raises to $12.74, Hero ... ?

i want to fold. its hard to see hands that c/r the river that we beat that dont raise earlier in the hand. wouldnt be surprised to see K5 and 55 an dont really expect him to raise anything else that isnt heavily discounted.

 

[micromachine]

Erm where are you getting 36 from?? I see that he needs to call $9.12 to win $29.10 -> 3.2:1.

But yeah I'm not folding cause we only need to be good roughly 1 in 4 times, and he over-values Kx here imo. Plus as stated, calling is waaaay more fun than folding

And I'm not sure where you got 29.10 from lol. You're right though 36 is wrong, it should be 32 as BB's original stack was 16 and he goes all in OTR.

 

[Jackle43]

Right, yeah I mean that would be my feeling too, I wouldn't want a stake unless it was going to come with good coaching. Having said that, if you really do want to do something like that down the line and we're only talking about 100 bucks then give me a shout. Typing this on phone so it's all over the shop sorry

I will take this offer if you want! haha

 

[Matt Vaughan]

And I'm not sure where you got 29.10 from lol. You're right though 36 is wrong, it should be 32 as BB's original stack was 16 and he goes all in OTR.

You haven't called all in yet. So the pot is not 32. If you call the pot is 32, but that's not what you're able to win. You can't win what's not in the pot!

 

[Cafeman]

Anyhoo, I called cos I 'put him on' a worse K - thereby justifying my stationy nature.... he had a worse K!!!

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Anyhoo, I called cos I 'put him on' a worse K - thereby justifying my stationy nature.... he had a worse K!!!

Results-oriented ftw.

Naw but cool, how much worse was it??

 

[micromachine]

You haven't called all in yet. So the pot is not 32. If you call the pot is 32, but that's not what you're able to win. You can't win what's not in the pot!

You're confusing me now lol, surely it's as simple as this:

You are calling 9 to win 32 so you are getting 3.6:1 odds on your money.

Once he bets 12.74 OTR he is all in. We are calling to win 32. Where do you get 29.10 from?

 

[Cafeman]

Results-oriented ftw.

Naw but cool, how much worse was it??

K9hh if memory serves.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

You're confusing me now lol, surely it's as simple as this:

You are calling 9 to win 32 so you are getting 3.6:1 odds on your money.

Once he bets 12.74 OTR he is all in. We are calling to win 32. Where do you get 29.10 from?

You haven't called, so you have NOT put in 16 dollars as villain has. I did in fact make a mistake though. I think I flipped one of the digits around or something.

On the river, before the betting, there is $7.24 in the pot. We bet $3.62 (which is now in the pot), and villain makes the total bet $12.74 (which is now in the pot). Add those suckers up and you get that there is $23.60 in the pot. So we risk $9.12 to win the $23.60 that is IN the pot. We can't "win" the the money from our call - that money is in our stack right now.

People often get confused about the "risking X to win Y" because they just know the quick-and-dirty calculation that the % of the time we need to win to breakeven is

What we risk/(What we risk + What's in the pot)

So they trick themselves and start calling the amount they haven't called off yet part of the pot. The $9 you haven't called yet is not in the pot. The reason the above equation works is because it's based on an EV calculation. I'm pretty sure I've done one ITT before but I'll do a quick one here.

EV = (Win%)*(Pot) - (1 - Win%)*(Cost to Call)
EV = (Win%)*(Pot) - (Cost to Call) + (Win%)*(Cost to Call)

So if we want to know the win % we need to breakeven, we set EV to 0:

0 = (Win%)*(Pot) - (Cost to Call) + (Win%)*(Cost to Call)
(Cost to Call) = (Win%)*(Pot + Cost to Call)
(Cost to Call)/(Pot + Cost to Call) = Win%

You can also think of it as Win% = (Cost to Call)/(Pot Size after we Call)
Make sense? In this case, cost to call is $9.12, the CURRENT pot is $23.60 (add them and it's about $32, which is the size of the pot if we do call).

So we're calling about 9.12 to win 23.6, which translates into roughly 2.6:1 pot odds (what we win when we win:what we lose when we lose). This translates into a breakeven win% of 9.12/(9.12+23.6) = 28%.

 

[micromachine]

OK thanks man, yeah you are right about the odds, you don't include your call when displaying odds. It's 23.60:9.12 --> 2.6:1 as you quite rightly say. I hate using odds and it always confuses me , which is why I use percentages for these calculations.

My normal way to work this out would be (9 / 32) * 100 = 28% so you need to be good >28% of the time to make calling +EV

 

[AlfieAA]

So I was going to play about on stove for half an hour and it said to install the new version...so I went to the website and its all advertisments now, no sign of anything stove related.....What's the deal, anybody know?

 

[Matt Vaughan]

OK thanks man, yeah you are right about the odds, you don't include your call when displaying odds. It's 23.60:9.12 --> 2.6:1 as you quite rightly say. I hate using odds and it always confuses me , which is why I use percentages for these calculations.

My normal way to work this out would be (9 / 32) * 100 = 28% so you need to be good >28% of the time to make calling +EV

Yeah man I hear you. It just take practice though. Also, understanding where that equity calculation comes from (a river-EV equation) makes it much more intuitive and will give you a really strong grasp on what's going on with the numbers. Definitely recommend (to anyone) screwing around a bit with river-call EV decisions and ranges just to get a feel for it.

So I was going to play about on stove for half an hour and it said to install the new version...so I went to the website and its all advertisments now, no sign of anything stove related.....What's the deal, anybody know?

Dunno. Mine's working fine on my Mac, but it probably wouldn't try to prompt me to download anything since I'm running it through WINE.

 

[Cafeman]

Back to 10NL on ipoker.


#HOTD

IPoker, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

BTN: $12.51 (125.1 bb)
SB: $6.13 (61.3 bb)
BB: $10.23 (102.3 bb)
Hero (UTG): $10.15 (101.5 bb)
MP: $9.80 (98 bb)
CO: $5.08 (50.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q

Q

Hero raises to $0.30, 3 folds, SB calls $0.25, BB folds

Flop: ($0.70) 2

J

6

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.52, SB calls $0.52

Turn: ($1.74) 8

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.60, SB calls $1.60

River: ($4.94) 8

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $4.94, SB calls $3.71 and is all-in

Results: $12.36 pot ($0.82 rake)
Final Board: 2

J

6

8

8

SB showed K

K

and won $11.54 ($5.41 net)
Hero mucked Q

Q

and lost (-$6.13 net)

 

[micromachine]

^^ Ugh hate it when fish do weird stuff and you're like how the f**k can you have that?

 

[micromachine]

Here villain is 22/22 over 20 or so hands, no info about his 3betting yet. I flatted pre as I was IP and OTF I thought shoving would look weaker than calling or raising smaller. Seems OK?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

UTG ($13.14)
Hero (MP) ($5)
CO ($4.79)
Button ($5.09)
SB ($5.28)
BB ($3.68)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 10

, 10

1 fold, Hero bets $0.17, 2 folds, SB raises to $0.60, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.43

Flop: ($1.25) 9

, J

, 10

(2 players)
SB bets $0.90, Hero raises to $4.40 (All-In), SB calls $3.50

Turn: ($10.05) 10

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($10.05) 4

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $10.05 | Rake: $0.42

Results below:

Spoiler

SB had Q

, Q

(two pair, Queens and tens).
Hero had 10

, 10

(four of a kind, tens).
Outcome: Hero won $9.63

 

[micromachine]

Vs Laggy player 52/32 13%3b over 200 hands. Thoughts?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

Button ($9.77)
SB ($6.18)
BB ($5.19)
UTG ($5)
Hero (MP) ($5.14)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q

, Q

1 fold, Hero bets $0.17, Button raises to $0.30, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, Button calls $0.45

Flop: ($1.57) 2

, K

, 8

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

Turn: ($1.57) 9

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.90, Button raises to $2, Hero calls $1.10

River: ($5.57) 5

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $2.40, Hero calls $2.39 (All-In)

Total pot: $10.35 | Rake: $0.43

 

[dmorris68]

So I was going to play about on stove for half an hour and it said to install the new version...so I went to the website and its all advertisments now, no sign of anything stove related.....What's the deal, anybody know?

What version are you running? Because I've never known it to check for updates.

And it looks like they've let their domain expire, which is why you're hitting a GoDaddy landing page. Not surprising since it's been pretty much a dead product for a long time (and an ugly, poorly designed one at that).

There are a number of good alternatives out there. I bought Combonator and FlopZilla and have also used the free version of Slice, plus a few different EV calculators on iOS.

 

[AlfieAA]

What version are you running? Because I've never known it to check for updates.

And it looks like they've let their domain expire, which is why you're hitting a GoDaddy landing page. Not surprising since it's been pretty much a dead product for a long time (and an ugly, poorly designed one at that).

There are a number of good alternatives out there. I bought Combonator and FlopZilla and have also used the free version of Slice, plus a few different EV calculators on iOS.

I have no idea at the moment what version it is, will check tomorrow when I go on the comp, but if it helps I downloaded it in september 2012 from their site....I thought stove was the grandaddy of EV calculators, good to know there are other ones available though, never really checked for anything else as I was happy with stove....yeah the software isn't very pleasing to the eye lol, and it doesn't look very modern, maybe the new version has improved graphics wise?....how much is flopzilla and combonator and which one would you say is the best out of them two?...if all else fails do you know where I can find the current version of stove?....thanks for the reply

 

[dmorris68]

Yeah, Stove was certainly one of the pioneers but it was crude as far as Apps go and pretty much abandoned for years, so a number of others stepped in to do it better. The last update of PokerStove I'm aware of is 1.24 which came out early last year I think, and as I recall only had some minor bug fixes -- nothing major, and the graphical anomalies like the window resizing bugs weren't fixed. I found the site as of Jan 22nd in the web archive here, and the download link on that page still works (as of right now). So grab it while you can.

Combonator is $45 for the Pro version, with a key that can be used on 2 computers. I think it was like $20-$25 for a lifetime license when I bought it a couple years ago, but it got pretty popular and the price went up accordingly when the author starting putting more time into enhancements and support. They do offer a free version with some restrictions, but I believe the equity calcs are only available in the Pro version. It is a sweet and highly polished little piece of software though, and goes way beyond what Stove can do. They have a number of tutorial videos available that you might find helpful.

Flopzilla is put out by CardRunners and costs $35. There is a 7 day trial with some features disabled. It's popular but I don't care for the cartoony graphics and it just seems a bit harder to use (I've never taken the time to really master it though). It's also a lot more advanced than Stove.

CR puts out another EV analysis tool called CardRunnersEV that costs $99 for the first license and $55 for the second. I've never tried it.

The free version of Slice is still downloadable but they're not taking payments for the paid version now -- their site has a message about registrations being suspended while they're transitioning to a new owner.

Between the ones mentioned, I like Combonator the best. I do recall running across some other freebies for the PC but it's been awhile and they didn't really compare to these.

 

[Logan2]

@Alfy , I have the 1.24 Stove version and it say was dnld on Sept.2012 too and still run fine (@W7).

@Micro. TT hand, been 3b pre i think we could get calls on flop from AA/KK/QQ/AK/JJ/99 and we are only beat by JJ. With KK/QQ/AK having some outs for a str8 make it easy they call, and on 5nl people still can´t let go Aces, so shoving flop looks fine.

 

[micromachine]

One more Please don't say fold pre I wanted to play vs the maniac, would like comments about what happened post flop.

MP: 86/51, 20%3b, about 30 hands - stats seem maniac but I got the impression he wasnt a total fish
BTN: 29/17, 9%3b, 25 hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

UTG ($9)
MP ($19.66)
CO ($6.56)
Button ($5)
SB ($5)
Hero (BB) ($7.16)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8

, 6

1 fold, MP bets $0.15, CO calls $0.15, Button calls $0.15, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.62) 8

, 3

, 6

(4 players)
Hero bets $0.35, MP calls $0.35, 1 fold, Button raises to $0.84, Hero calls $0.49, MP calls $0.49

Turn: ($3.14) 5

(3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, Button bets $2.42, Hero raises to $4.84, 1 fold, Button calls $1.59 (All-In)

River: ($11.16) K

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $11.16 | Rake: $0.46

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Here villain is 22/22 over 20 or so hands, no info about his 3betting yet. I flatted pre as I was IP and OTF I thought shoving would look weaker than calling or raising smaller. Seems OK?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

UTG ($13.14)
Hero (MP) ($5)
CO ($4.79)
Button ($5.09)
SB ($5.28)
BB ($3.68)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 10

, 10

1 fold, Hero bets $0.17, 2 folds, SB raises to $0.60, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.43

Flop: ($1.25) 9

, J

, 10

(2 players)
SB bets $0.90, Hero raises to $4.40 (All-In), SB calls $3.50

Turn: ($10.05) 10

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($10.05) 4

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $10.05 | Rake: $0.42

Results below:

Spoiler

SB had Q

, Q

(two pair, Queens and tens).
Hero had 10

, 10

(four of a kind, tens).
Outcome: Hero won $9.63

Seems fine. NH. (We're losing to KQ as well as JJ though btw - we just have sick redraw equity against it).

Vs Laggy player 52/32 13%3b over 200 hands. Thoughts?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

Button ($9.77)
SB ($6.18)
BB ($5.19)
UTG ($5)
Hero (MP) ($5.14)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q

, Q

1 fold, Hero bets $0.17, Button raises to $0.30, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, Button calls $0.45

Flop: ($1.57) 2

, K

, 8

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

Turn: ($1.57) 9

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.90, Button raises to $2, Hero calls $1.10

River: ($5.57) 5

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $2.40, Hero calls $2.39 (All-In)

Total pot: $10.35 | Rake: $0.43

Erm do you default 4bet QQ OOP? I don't really like it unless he's a maniac and you think he 3bet/5bet-ships junk. His range IP OTB is likely to be polarized and not necessarily that strong side-weighted. I think we get too many folds and narrow his range to mostly hands we're flipping or losing against when he does flat or 5bet. I don't really like turning QQ into a bluff.

One more Please don't say fold pre I wanted to play vs the maniac, would like comments about what happened post flop.

MP: 86/51, 20%3b, about 30 hands - stats seem maniac but I got the impression he wasnt a total fish
BTN: 29/17, 9%3b, 25 hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

UTG ($9)
MP ($19.66)
CO ($6.56)
Button ($5)
SB ($5)
Hero (BB) ($7.16)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8

, 6

1 fold, MP bets $0.15, CO calls $0.15, Button calls $0.15, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.62) 8

, 3

, 6

(4 players)
Hero bets $0.35, MP calls $0.35, 1 fold, Button raises to $0.84, Hero calls $0.49, MP calls $0.49

Turn: ($3.14) 5

(3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, Button bets $2.42, Hero raises to $4.84, 1 fold, Button calls $1.59 (All-In)

River: ($11.16) K

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $11.16 | Rake: $0.46

Fold pre. Seriously. If you were on the button I'd almost consider this ok preflop. But from the BB? The reason it's so gross postflop is that you're OOP.

Also, I understand the desire to take these weak suited-gapper type hands to war against a maniac because "LAWL his range is fookin wide, man!!" but we beat maniacs by letting them bet and raise us with nothing when we have strong hands. We don't really want to get in spots where we're getting weakish flush draws and draws to the 2nd-nut straight and trying to decide how to proceed OOP against a guy who keeps betting into us.

As played pre, I think you have to lead out on the flop because it's MW, but I'd go bigger to maybe $0.40. I also kind of like a 3bet OTF. Idk how these two players play their drawing hands, but maniac almost certainly has some drawing equity since he calls instead of raising your flop bet or folding. I'm wary of BTN's sizing as it looks like he never wants folds, but he can be over-valuing 99 or TT here, as well as potentially having some sort of backdoor combo draw or something that he's playing weirdly.

Basically there's just a shit-ton of turn cards we don't like. Any spade for a flush draw, and T, 9, 7, 4, 2 all complete OESDs that these types of players can definitely have here.

And again, on the turn, we kinda got ourselves into a shitty spot by playing this hand OOP preflop. I expect to be good sometimes, but when BTN is betting so strongly I expect him to have sets and straights a good portion of the time - he's not thinking about sizing here (he leaves himself < $2 after betting > $2). He wants to shovel money in. So it comes down to whether you think he can over-value TT/99 enough to do this, or like some awkward weaker 2p. If not I can't see what you're ahead of. A8 maaaaaaaybe?