Micro FR Study Group

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Quick answer: in general it'll be better to 4bet bluff a polarized range, but depending on their tendencies, we could flip it the other way.

vs a polarized 3bettor who folds his trash and ships his value:

I'm not going to go into combos, but in general you're looking for a breakdown of nuts:air of like 2:1 or worse for a 4bet to work here, based purely on the odds we're laying ourselves for a bluff preflop.

3bb-10bb-24bb sizing means we have to risk 21bb to win like 14bb. 21/(21+14) = .6 We need him to fold at least %60 of the time on avg for the play to show a profit, or in other words, his value (ie shippable) part of his range makes up more than %60 of his entire 3betting range, then we can't 4bet bluff profitably.

When villain starts 3bet/shoving parts of his air range, like A2s for example, then our bluff gets less profitable obviously, as his shippable:non-shippable ratio gets bigger, and our % for immediate folds grows.

vs a depolarized player:

This is where it gets sticky, but in general it's worse to 4bet bluff a player like this since he'll do something like 3bet/shove hands like AQ too often for us to show a profit. Again going back to the nuts:air thing, his ratio will be to high.

The other side of this argument, is if someone is 3betting a toppened %6 range, then they'll have stuff like ATs in their range, in which case they may have to fold to a 4bet as well.


Most people at the micros haven't figured out to 3bet a polarized range against regs (which in general is the correct thing to do), and as such do stuff like 3bet/call a 4bet with TT, then we have to deal with them postflop. You start to see more people 3bet polarized ranges at 50-200nl and do so completely unbalanced, so 4bet bluffing them starts to get more attractive.
 
Well what about a polarized 4bet which is what i seem to have and evidently players at 10nl are picking up on it.Hand was like 5min ago or so.Notes on villain are basic ABC poker.

Full Tilt Poker $10.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1239710
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

Hero (BTN): $11.20
SB: $12.29
BB: $11.32 19\17\4~800hands
UTG: $2.14
MP: $10.36
CO: $10.00

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BTN with K :spade: K :heart:
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, 1 fold, BB raises to $0.95, Hero raises to $3.50, BB raises to $11.32, Hero calls $7.70 all in

Flop: ($22.45) 6 :club: 3 :heart: A :club: (2 players - 1 is all in)

Turn: ($22.45) 9 :diamond: (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($22.45) 7 :heart: (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $22.45
Hero shows K :spade: K :heart:
BB shows Q :heart: 8 :heart:
Hero wins $20.96
(Rake: $1.49)
 
ChuckTs said:
Quick answer: in general it'll be better to 4bet bluff a polarized range, but depending on their tendencies, we could flip it the other way.

vs a polarized 3bettor who folds his trash and ships his value:

I'm not going to go into combos, but in general you're looking for a breakdown of nuts:air of like 2:1 or worse for a 4bet to work here, based purely on the odds we're laying ourselves for a bluff preflop.

3bb-10bb-24bb sizing means we have to risk 21bb to win like 14bb. 21/(21+14) = .6 We need him to fold at least %60 of the time on avg for the play to show a profit, or in other words, his value (ie shippable) part of his range makes up more than %60 of his entire 3betting range, then we can't 4bet bluff profitably.

When villain starts 3bet/shoving parts of his air range, like A2s for example, then our bluff gets less profitable obviously, as his shippable:non-shippable ratio gets bigger, and our % for immediate folds grows.

vs a depolarized player:

This is where it gets sticky, but in general it's worse to 4bet bluff a player like this since he'll do something like 3bet/shove hands like AQ too often for us to show a profit. Again going back to the nuts:air thing, his ratio will be to high.

The other side of this argument, is if someone is 3betting a toppened %6 range, then they'll have stuff like ATs in their range, in which case they may have to fold to a 4bet as well.


Most people at the micros haven't figured out to 3bet a polarized range against regs (which in general is the correct thing to do), and as such do stuff like 3bet/call a 4bet with TT, then we have to deal with them postflop. You start to see more people 3bet polarized ranges at 50-200nl and do so completely unbalanced, so 4bet bluffing them starts to get more attractive.
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so in cases where SB 5bet shoves and pot is now ~ 133bb and you have 67bb behind you should only need 33% equity to call to make it +EV?

If so and you assumed SB's 5bet shove range was KK+,AK it would be profitable to call the shove with QQ which has 39% equity against that range. In fact JJ has roughly the same equity and if villain is 5betting QQ or worse our equity only gets better.

Edit: one other thing. Do you experienced guys have a general rule of thumb about deciding what types of villains are likely to ship AK/QQ and which are only shoving KK+? It seems logical to assume that the wider the 3bet range the more likely villain would shove QQ/AK but without stats on this do you just look at AF to predict a shove, call or fold?
 
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fx20736 said:
so in cases where SB 5bet shoves and pot is now ~ 133bb and you have 67bb behind you should only need 33% equity to call to make it +EV?
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that's just a straight pot odds question. 133:67 = ~2:1, so yeah, 33% equity needed to call.

fx20736 said:
If so and you assumed SB's 5bet shove range was KK+,AK it would be profitable to call the shove with QQ which has 39% equity against that range. In fact JJ has roughly the same equity and if villain is 5betting QQ or worse our equity only gets better.
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Yep.

fx20736 said:
Edit: one other thing. Do you experienced guys have a general rule of thumb about deciding what types of villains are likely to ship AK/QQ and which are only shoving KK+? It seems logical to assume that the wider the 3bet range the more likely villain would shove QQ/AK but without stats on this do you just look at AF to predict a shove, call or fold?
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3bet/4bet stats and reads are there for a reason...the fold to 4bet stat is by definition the % of hands they're folding to a 4bet. Find their 3bet %, use their F4bet stat to deduce how much of that 3bet% they're stacking, and play accordingly...but yes, in general, the wider the 3bet range, the wider someone would be stacking pf, but that's definitely not always the case.

I'm a 6max reg, and obv FR ranges are going to be stronger, but in general you need an exception to to have a read that someone would only shove KK+. ie a nit. Even passive fish will stack AK and QQ a good chunk of the time.
 
Ok can we talk about 4bet bet sizing.Say we are playing 10nl we are in the CO with AA raise standard 3x SB 3bets to $1.20.There are a few times i would flat here but for the sake of it lets just say were 4betting.Should we be making it $3.60-$5.00 or just shove?
 
4bet shoving is the nuts. I never 4bet bluff at 5nl.
 
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Typical 10nl reg 6max stats are 20\17\4 3bet5% 3bet blinds 6-12% so we will go with those stats.Most ppl do not 4bet light i my self have started to 4 bet light an some players are taking notes on me it would seem.
 
JOEBOB69 said:
Typical 10nl reg 6max stats are 20\17\4 3bet5% 3bet blinds 6-12% so we will go with those stats.Most ppl do not 4bet light i my self have started to 4 bet light an some players are taking notes on me it would seem.
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What makes you think that?
 
In the past few days i have caught some of the reg's at this limit 5bet shoving air into me.
 
So...going over my most recent ~2500 hands @10NL 6max and I found a very impressive leak. I have serious spew issues with AK. Found 3 hands where I stacked off in spots where it was pretty clear folding or something less aggro was better.

Even so, up 3.5BI over those hands so I must be running okay? Kind of sick to think how a spew leak like that cut about 50% from my potential profit in this sample period 😱

re: 4bet-size. I think if you intend to 4bet bluff at all you can kind of polarize your 4bet sizing. Have a smallish 4bet and a 4bet shove basically. 4bet shove with AK and a few other decent hands you're planning to 4bet. Then go to about 2.4-2.5x the 3bet size with things like QQ+ and the really bluffy side. Makes it tough to 5bet you with air because the range you allow 5bets with is MONSTERS and air in like 3:1 or 5:2 type ratio.
 
There's a very clear distinction when it comes to 4betting at the micros. If you only ever 4bet for value then I believe shoving is best. If at times you 4bet bluff (I play 5nl but at 10/25nl it might be possible) then make it something like 2-2.5x. Lines along 3-10-24 or 3-9-22 or 4-12-25. bb's obv.
 
LuckyChippy said:
There's a very clear distinction when it comes to 4betting at the micros. If you only ever 4bet for value then I believe shoving is best. If at times you 4bet bluff (I play 5nl but at 10/25nl it might be possible) then make it something like 2-2.5x. Lines along 3-10-24 or 3-9-22 or 4-12-25. bb's obv.
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so if you 4bet QQ to 25bb and an unknown villain with no real reads 5bet/ shoves on you do you fold?

Also, if villain flats your 4bet how do you play QQ postflop when you flop an overpair? Any bet on the flop means you're committing your stack.

I guess every NLHE discussion about 3betting/ 4betting should really just say: How do you play QQ/AK???
 
fx20736 said:
so if you 4bet QQ to 25bb and an unknown villain with no real reads 5bet/ shoves on you do you fold?

Also, if villain flats your 4bet how do you play QQ postflop when you flop an overpair? Any bet on the flop means you're committing your stack.

I guess every NLHE discussion about 3betting/ 4betting should really just say: How do you play QQ/AK???
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You should never be 4bet bluffing with QQ/AK. If you 4bet those hands small that's fine, but you have to call if shoved on. If villain is so tight that you can't profitably 4bet AK/QQ you should fold them to their 3bet unless stacks are deep enough to make flatting profitable. There are like 5 people I know that are this tight (fx you are 1 of them).

As to how to play your hand with QQ/AK postflop? The pot will be so large that your hand will play itself. With TP or an overpair you're always going to be committed to put the rest of your stack in because we don't fold TP+ with an SPR under 2.
 
That's at FR too fx, at 6max I lolcall.

Seriously though, like WV said, if someone is ridiculously tight so that 4betting isn't profitable then we just fold/flat their 3bet instead.

We 4bet QQ because it's ahead of their 3bet range AND they call/shove with worse. Otherwise we do something else with it whether that is folding or calling.
 
WVHillbilly said:
You should never be 4bet bluffing with QQ/AK. If you 4bet those hands small that's fine, but you have to call if shoved on. If villain is so tight that you can't profitably 4bet AK/QQ you should fold them to their 3bet unless stacks are deep enough to make flatting profitable. There are like 5 people I know that are this tight (fx you are 1 of them).

As to how to play your hand with QQ/AK postflop? The pot will be so large that your hand will play itself. With TP or an overpair you're always going to be committed to put the rest of your stack in because we don't fold TP+ with an SPR under 2.
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cool. I never suggested 4betting QQ/AK as a bluff, merely that these two hands are probably the hardest to play in big pots.

I also agree that if if an 8/7 guy with a 2% 3bet re-raises me and I am OOP I'd snap fold QQ & AK.

If the same villain opens UTG I'd flat pocket pairs up to QQ and 3bet KK+/AK. If I flop an overpair with QQ I'd probably do a little pot control and call / check behind hoping to get to the river vs JJ/TT.
 
Introduction

I am in the process of building a $190 bankroll on Ft.

playing $4 nl shallow (.05/.10) though for the moment, until the bankroll doubles.

Then il play $10 nl Normal.

I have been taking my poker seriously lately and therefore i am going to join this group.

I have been trying to multi table with two only tables but i expect i need all the concentration for one table at the moment.

Im going to give it a try again tonight.

Any way Hello🙂
 
Hello saint welcome to CC.First off you shouldn't be buying in short stacked(40bb)you should always buy in full 100bb.If you feel you or not rolled for 10nl maybe you should drop down to 5nl untill you have the proper roll for 10nl.
 
Oh, I thought it was implied, but I'd like to jump in on this uNL group too. Working 10NL right now, just trying to get the kinks out of my game and shake the cash cobwebs loose. I think the 2-table approach is good for me atm until I can rewire some of the auto-pilot things I do with the good stuff I know I should be doing.

Are the short-stacked tables easier to beat or something? I guess in terms of BRM they work better for $200 than full tables do 😀
 
In general, is 4bet-shoving AK for value a pretty standard/reasonable thing do at 10NL? Against reasonably sized 3bets like: 3x->9-12x and we're 100bb effective.
 
Lofwyr said:
In general, is 4bet-shoving AK for value a pretty standard/reasonable thing do at 10NL? Against reasonably sized 3bets like: 3x->9-12x and we're 100bb effective.
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Not standard. Really need to know your opponent's 3bet percentage and their fold to 4bet percentage. If villain has a 3% 3bet percentage you have 40% equity against that range, so so you need to know if you shove how often they fold. If they never fold your EV = -17bb
 
fx20736 said:
Not standard. Really need to know your opponent's 3bet percentage and their fold to 4bet percentage. If villain has a 3% 3bet percentage you have 40% equity against that range, so so you need to know if you shove how often they fold. If they never fold your EV = -17bb
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Guess I should have clarified - the villain would be relatively unknown. I'm trying to determine a baseline for 3betting at 10NL so to speak. I've found 3bets coming from players with <5 hands in more than one session now and don't really know how wide to guesstimate their range.
 
Regarding 100BB's buy-in

Thank you for your help.

I will try 100BB's at the lower .02/.05.

Is there a quick an easy way to make multi-tabling on FT easy?

I think i can handle two now after an experiment day. aiming for 4 very very soon, cant wait, although i presume i will need double the role to play it safely?

Bankroll = $190
:icon_sunn
 
no you don't need double the roll to play it safely. Just keep adding tables one at a time until you get comfortable and rinse and repeat
 
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