Beyond NLHE -January Chat Thread

[Marginal]

Sly, you are playing 25PLO over on stars right? How have the games on stars changed since moving up? Just moved up to 25 on FTP and it just seems so much softer than 10PLO.

 

[slycbnew]

Sly, you are playing 25PLO over on stars right? How have the games on stars changed since moving up? Just moved up to 25 on FTP and it just seems so much softer than 10PLO.

I'm having the same experience - alot more 80/10 type players than at 10plo, alot more guys willing to call down/push w weaker holdings.

 

[Makwa]

You don't put the same amount of money in the pot when you lose? I don't know about you, but I'm not calling the river un-improved with a pair of ducks. Usually when we win, we get to put in a raise on a big bet street, and when we lose, we just fold the river. So there's actually a 3 big bet net difference in outcomes.

Seriously dude, do you think Sklansky is making this stuff up? Would you rather have a pair of queens against his king up?

Yes thats true, I did not account for the 3 bet diff...

No don't think he's making it up... still a marginal strategy IMHO. After all, it only merits a sentence or 2 in his book. I will keep it in mind...

Qs or duckets the principle is the same. :shakehand

 

[c9h13no3]

still a marginal strategy IMHO.

You're playing a limit game. Small edges is all you get.

 

[Makwa]

Always wondered and I have asked before why we dont have a section for "other games". I have no idea how to play Omaha or stud well but love playing O/8 or Stud 8 and Razz.

I really think this forum is ready for a seperate section on "other games'

I think there should be enough interest

Thoughts???

Under Poker Strategies:

Subforum 1): Stud and variants (8 and razz)
Subforum 2): Omaha and O8 Limit and PL (NL is almost nonexistent these days)
Subforum 3): Other games (Draw, 72 Triple, 72 Single, Badugi, 7 Game, 8 Game and HORSE)

That just about covers it I think...:hmmmm:

We are getting big enough to offer serious discussions on games other than Foldem, like 2+2 does (main reason I go there is for discussions on these other games)... No other forums take these games seriously, would be a great asset to CC to start doing so!

 

[Makwa]

You're playing a limit game. Small edges is all you get.

I can see u r never going to quit, with the blanket statements at least.

Starting out with trips or a str fl draw that fills, particularly against a calling station or at a loose table, is a huge edge.

Small edges are also attributable to NLHE, even though huge stacks get pushed around sometimes, so in the end yes poker is about small edges. But huge ones do come along...

 

[slycbnew]

fyi, PLO straight on two toned board discussion: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/general-poker-13/flushes-omaha-168578/#post1386524

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

NL Omahaha is not for anyone with a heart condition. I guess you can say it is for major action/rush junkies. I was at one table where within 10 minutes of play over $750 changed hands. And it was a $25 dollar table. You are basically pushing edges PF in this game. And the varience is higher here than anywhere else or at least it seems that way.

I have a question. I don't have a OM. But I was just wondering, from those who do track their results, how often does your straights hold up against flush draws? What is the percentage?

 

[LarkMarlow]

Of all the non-NLHE games offered online, I like PL 5 card draw 6 player touneys the best. To my knowledge, Stars is only place that routinely spreads this variation. I play it at least a couple of times a week--anyone else or am I alone?

I've also played some of the WCOOP and other megatourney draw events with some success...cashing but not enough to pay off my mortgage or anything .

 

[Johnnybmoto]

Did I play this decently? Cap turn?

PokerStars Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, $6.00 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 3

, 3

, 5

, A

UTG raises, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 3 folds, SB calls, 1 fold

Flop: (9 SB) 10

, 2

, 4

(4 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, MP2 calls, 1 fold, UTG calls

Turn: (7.5 BB) J

(3 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, MP2 calls, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls

River: (16.5 BB) 7

(3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, 1 fold

Total pot: $111 (18.5 BB) | Rake: $3

Results:
Hero had 3

, 3

, 5

, A

(Hi: one pair, threes, Lo: [ 7, 4, 3, 2, A ]).
MP2 had 4

, 4

, 9

, 2

(Hi: three of a kind, fours).
Outcome: Hero won $54, MP2 won $54

 

[slycbnew]

how often does your straights hold up against flush draws? What is the percentage?

A flopped straight w no redraws against a flopped bare flush draw should hold up roughly 63%, I think (i.e., 9/47 + 9/46, chance of a flush card hitting on turn or river). Here's a simulation:

Omaha Hi Simulation
820 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 6c7c9h

Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
8sTsJsAh 64.39% 528 0
Ac2cQc4h 35.61% 292 0


Hard to say in the db how often it'll hold up, since we're folding the nut straight sometimes to significant action against the right opponents. Also, it's rare to get significant action from a bare fd, there's usually something else to go with it.

 

[slycbnew]

Did I play this decently? Cap turn?

PokerStars Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, $6.00 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 3

, 3

, 5

, A

UTG raises, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 3 folds, SB calls, 1 fold

Flop: (9 SB) 10

, 2

, 4

(4 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, MP2 calls, 1 fold, UTG calls

Turn: (7.5 BB) J

(3 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, MP2 calls, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls

River: (16.5 BB) 7

(3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, 1 fold

Total pot: $111 (18.5 BB) | Rake: $3

Results:
Hero had 3

, 3

, 5

, A

(Hi: one pair, threes, Lo: [ 7, 4, 3, 2, A ]).
MP2 had 4

, 4

, 9

, 2

(Hi: three of a kind, fours).
Outcome: Hero won $54, MP2 won $54

I like capping the turn - we are drawing to the uncounterfeitable nut low, and we make several nut highs for scoops. We're crushing the deck.

I suck at limit tho, so...

 

[TheWall]

What level of Limit O8 should I be playing with a $100 roll.

 

[slycbnew]

What level of Limit O8 should I be playing with a $100 roll.

I've seen 300xBB as a general recommendation, which would put us somewhere around $0.10/$0.20.

 

[slycbnew]

Food for thought...

Earlier in this thread, c9 asked PLO players to post their standard deviation stats. If you're not familiar w the idea, it's a measure of how "swingy" your winrate is, and also gives you an idea of how broad a range of winrates you could have based on your actual winrate. Say you're an actual 3BB/100 winner at some limit - the stdev gives you a sense that with a good or bad run of cards (or a bad session here or there, or tilt, or whatever) you could really be, say, a -1BB/100 loser up to a 5BB/100 winner.

I posted my stdev for PLO (97) and for NLHE (45) earlier in the thread - this means I'm a heckuva lot less swingy at NLHE than PLO.

Note that this is actually a really important strategy consideration that c9 asked about, and for anyone serious about growing a br, should give you pause before committing whole hog to PLO.

It also makes limit games pretty attractive - stdev for limit games is generally going to be alot lower (I'm mentioning this partly cuz of The Wall's q regarding br for LO8).

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

I just downloaded PT3 and was checking some stats. This was on a hand that I had questions about. My win rate with 6789 was something like 33%. The hand that I had the best win rate with, (75%) was AKJ2, (go figure). This was based on a small monthly sample, (about 6000 hands on one site).

 

[Dwilius]

Earlier in this thread, c9 asked PLO players to post their standard deviation stats. If you're not familiar w the idea, it's a measure of how "swingy" your winrate is, and also gives you an idea of how broad a range of winrates you could have based on your actual winrate.

...and here's a variance simulator http://www.pokervariancesimulator.fr/ that belgo linked to in this thread, Why 20 buy-ins is not enough

 

[slycbnew]

Is that the trial version of PT3? If so, before you purchase, try the HEM trial as well. I haven't seen the PT3 integrated w Omaha version, hope its good! I used PT3 for NLHE, but bought HEM late last year cuz of the integrated Omaha version.

There's a built in report in HEM that shows hand groupings and winrate by handgrouping type. These are my top won hand % by hand group type over 77.7K hands:

Double pairs w AA - 54%
AAxx - 52.3%
High wraps - 47.9%
High Pair wraps - 44%
High Gap Wraps - 38.3%
Middle Wraps - 37.8%
High Double Pair - 37.7%
KKxx - 34.5%

Middle wraps also are 6th in my BB/100 winrate ranking at 48BB/100.

Middle wraps includes 9876, so my won hand% is a little higher than you're showing in your 6k sample, but not by a ton.

I'm trying to increase my 3bet% generally, so I'm pretty happy to include the middle wraps in my 3betting range, but even if it's not in your 3bet range it's pretty clearly a very strong set of hands - not necessarily premium like a QJT9 hand (high wrap), but...

 

[c9h13no3]

It also makes limit games pretty attractive - stdev for limit games is generally going to be alot lower (I'm mentioning this partly cuz of The Wall's q regarding br for LO8).

Yeah, but win-rates are also a lot lower. You need to compare your standard deviation to your win-rate to get a true picture of which is more swingy. But for NLHE & PLO usually PLO has *roughly* the same win rates as NLHE (most of the time slightly higher for PLO, but you can still make a pretty good comparison).

 

[Marginal]

1000bb over last 2000 hands. Sustainable?

 

[Marginal]

Villain was 90/70, 3 bets almost all open raises. Thoughts on isolation raise? I have been really nitty and the other 2 players will respect my raise, granted they don't have AAxx (they have seen my nit it up and they are not stations).

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

SB ($33.16)
CrackerAssFantastic (BB) ($26.42)
UTG ($49.63)
MP ($25)
CO ($26.56)
Button ($19.65)

Preflop: CrackerAssFantastic is BB with 4

, A

, K

, Q

UTG bets $0.85, 1 fold, CO calls $0.85, 1 fold, SB raises to $3.65, CrackerAssFantastic raises to $12.65

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Your hand annihilates the range of your 90/70 loony opponent. That said playing for stacks PF (or at least implying that its going in shortly) in this game can certainly be a high variance approach. But hey... you should be ahead pre.

 

[nevadanick]

^^^ this kind of play is why I won't play PLO or PLO8 online. It's nothing more than NLHE on steroids, imo.

Just my thoughts, but ANY hand all-in pf is lucker, not poker.

In the above hand, my experience is that the flop will be 6,7,8,9, 2 hearts, 2 diamonds ...

 

[Marginal]

Well the flop did come 10-7-6 with 2 clubs and he shipped it and of course I called. He turned over Q-5-2-K with no suites and I won the hand unimproved. It really isn't optimal getting it in PF but I probably win a few extra bbs in that situation over just flatting and seeing a 4 way flop.

 

[slycbnew]

1000bb over last 2000 hands. Sustainable?

Absolutely