Beyond NLHE -January Chat Thread

[slycbnew]

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/200-nl-o8-full-ring-bad-168867/

crosspost, NLO8.

Double-A has a good point he's making regarding checking here - my natural inclination here is to bet/fold - any thoughts?

 

[slycbnew]

^^^ this kind of play is why I won't play PLO or PLO8 online. It's nothing more than NLHE on steroids, imo.

Just my thoughts, but ANY hand all-in pf is lucker, not poker.

In the above hand, my experience is that the flop will be 6,7,8,9, 2 hearts, 2 diamonds ...

It's an interesting spot though - someone who's playing silly hyper agg like this is 3betting such a wide range that the flop is going to miss him very frequently. I'm finding that alot of my winnings (and, to be fair, a good chunk of variance) are based on playing very aggressively pf w these guys, and that hand is very good to tangle HU w this guy. Straightforward ABC players tend to get passive in these situations as well and allow the "two idiots" to play it out (I like the iso raise).

 

[c9h13no3]

^^^ this kind of play is why I won't play PLO or PLO8 online. It's nothing more than NLHE on steroids, imo.

Just my thoughts, but ANY hand all-in pf is lucker, not poker.

Its okay, we can't all be good at poker.

 

[Marginal]

Say you are a 22/15 or 20/12 or something, you open raise and get 3 bet.You have position and You are not stealing here, is it ever correct to fold to a 3bet? IE 100% call 3bet. I'm thinking that equities run so close that you almost always have greater than 33% equity and thus it has to be profitable.

Please feel free to tell me that I am retarded.

 

[c9h13no3]

I'm thinking that equities run so close that you almost always have greater than 33% equity and thus it has to be profitable

That 33% is all in equity, and unless you're silly short, you're not all in. So the problem is more complex than just considering your all in equity. You really need to consider how many flops you can hit, implied odds, crap like that. Because if you were all in, you may have won some pots on the turn/river that you would be forced to fold on the flop because you don't have a strong enough hand to continue.

 

[slycbnew]

Say you are a 22/15 or 20/12 or something, you open raise and get 3 bet.You have position and You are not stealing here, is it ever correct to fold to a 3bet? IE 100% call 3bet. I'm thinking that equities run so close that you almost always have greater than 33% equity and thus it has to be profitable.

Please feel free to tell me that I am retarded.

Nope, not retarded, I agree. Even a reasonable paired holding (say, KKJTss) isn't worse than 33% against reasonable to good AAxx hands, and even a 8765ss is better than 40% against QJT9ss and almost 40% against a good AAxx hand. I started off thinking that it couldn't be right to always call 3bets in position, but I've come to pretty much the same conclusion.

 

[slycbnew]

That 33% is all in equity, and unless you're silly short, you're not all in. So the problem is more complex than just considering your all in equity. You really need to consider how many flops you can hit, implied odds, crap like that. Because if you were all in, you may have won some pots on the turn/river that you would be forced to fold on the flop because you don't have a strong enough hand to continue.

Right, so let's say we're looking at a stronger KKxx hand vs. a good AAxx hand - unless you hit a good draw or a K on the flop, you're going to have to fold a lot of the time - but w position, is this a hand we can fold pf to a 3bet? I don't like 4betting KKxx hands generally against nits w tiny 3bet%...

 

[nevadanick]

Its okay, we can't all be good at poker.

Guess not ... ... I'll just have to try harder to bankrupt any one of my 4 BR's built from -0- sometime this year. Haven't been able to in the last 2 years ... but I'll keep working at it.

I'll just have to play more of those all-in pf hands to get the job done ...

 

[c9h13no3]

Guess not ... ... I'll just have to try harder to bankrupt any one of my 4 BR's built from -0- sometime this year. Haven't been able to in the last 2 years ... but I'll keep working at it.

Didn't say you couldn't build a bankroll from zero. Shit, you can beat the microstakes without ever 3-betting preflop most likely. Doesn't make you good at poker though. And if someone wants to offer you an edge preflop, you should take it, unless by passing it up you can exploit a bigger edge postflop. But in this situation, where you're going to have 4 players in the hand unless you 4-bet, 4-betting is obviously the correct option.

 

[c9h13no3]

Right, so let's say we're looking at a stronger KKxx hand vs. a good AAxx hand - unless you hit a good draw or a K on the flop, you're going to have to fold a lot of the time - but w position, is this a hand we can fold pf to a 3bet? I don't like 4betting KKxx hands generally against nits w tiny 3bet%...

I have no idea, since I don't play PLO .

However, this sounds like a similar argument for calling 3-bets with a suited connector or pocket 5's in NLHE. In pokerstove, pocket 5's are only a 60/40 dog to a range of 5% of hands (AQ+, TT+). So we should call with position right? Lol, no.

"Flopability" of hands is a concept I've been meaning to write an article about for a while now. But I've always been afraid no one here would care, and afraid everyone on 2+2 or Uncontested would think it was blatantly obvious.

 

[slycbnew]

I have no idea, since I don't play PLO .

However, this sounds like a similar argument for calling 3-bets with a suited connector or pocket 5's in NLHE. In pokerstove, pocket 5's are only a 60/40 dog to a range of 5% of hands (AQ+, TT+). So we should call with position right? Lol, no.

Good analogy.

"Flopability" of hands is a concept I've been meaning to write an article about for a while now. But I've always been afraid no one here would care, and afraid everyone on 2+2 or Uncontested would think it was blatantly obvious.

"Flopability" is a pretty critical concept in Omaha, this is why pairs suck, they don't hit as many flops.

I'd certainly read your article w interest, if you get around to writing it - and i'd think anyone interested in any Omaha game is going to be interested in this, I see PLO and PLO8 players playing hands strongly pf, or calling pf, that are going to hit so few flops it's ridiculous.

 

[nevadanick]

"Flopability" is a pretty critical concept in Omaha, this is why pairs suck, they don't hit as many flops.

I'd certainly read your article w interest, if you get around to writing it - and i'd think anyone interested in any Omaha game is going to be interested in this, I see PLO and PLO8 players playing hands strongly pf, or calling pf, that are going to hit so few flops it's ridiculous.

I would be interested in reading an article like that written by C9 !!

Even though I don't play and PL games, theories and strategies are great to have for comparison to other games. Who knows ... CC may even schedule more of the PL stakes and O/O8 games in the future ...

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Yes.. meant to write earlier that flopability is a great concept and I would be glad to see a C9 article on it. And even though I already have an understanding of it, I am not so foolish as to think another perspective might not open up new/deeper understanding.

So no.. not everyone here is "who cares?" and I am not ashamed to admit I am not afraid to hear more about the "blatantly obvious".

 

[Makwa]

"Flopability" is a pretty critical concept in Omaha, this is why pairs suck, they don't hit as many flops.

... I see PLO and PLO8 players playing hands strongly pf, or calling pf, that are going to hit so few flops it's ridiculous.

Read back on my post on starters for these games. Just a start, but u r right, HE players think Omaha means playing HE times 2 and ignore the huge range of flopable hands with 4 cards in everyone's hand. They play 2 cards instead of a possible 6 combinations, push with AAxx and get killed every time almost.

O8 players thinking HE make same mistake, playing A2xx sooted like gold until they lose their stacks.

In both cases they are raising and shoving pf with no real openers.

 

[slycbnew]

Read back on my post on starters for these games.

Agreed. Marginal's bringing up a good point, though - when, if ever, should we fold to a 3bet in position? As examples:

1. Against someone w a tiny 3bet% (i.e., presumably only 3bets AAxx), I'm usually inclined to call 100% of the time and play close to fit or fold, regardless of my holding. This is cuz I'm thinking implied odds are sky high - i.e., that he'll stack off against virtually any hand I make, or any strong (13+ card) draw I flop.

2. Against someone w a broad 3bet%, it gets trickier imo, cuz we're looking at someone who's 3betting a lot of rundowns as well as AAxx and KKxx hands. I won't fold a good single suited rundown in this situation, nor AAxx, but I'm not sure about other holdings here - say QQT9ss.

3. Against an unknown, I'm reluctant to fold to a 3bet in position - that may be a leak.

c9's analogy to flatting sc's/55 in HE for setmining is very good here - but I'm not sure yet how to apply it.

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

"Flopability" is a pretty critical concept in Omaha, this is why pairs suck, they don't hit as many flops. quote]

Yeah sometimes it just seems that you are better playing just any 4 cards pf.

 

[nevadanick]

"Flopability" is a pretty critical concept in Omaha, this is why pairs suck, they don't hit as many flops.

Yeah sometimes it just seems that you are better playing just any 4 cards pf.

Seems a lot of O players do just THAT ... ATC. Omaha is a fun game I play once in a while but it's too much like Holdem on steroids. Why not deal out the whole deck first, leaving only enough cards for the board ... ... using anything you want in any combination ...

Omaha is already close to that with a 9-seat table being dealt 36 cards plus the 5 for the board. Doesn't leave much. Imagine a 6-max ... 7 hole cards and 5 for the board.

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

What would you put him on? And what would you do?

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
UTG+1 ($3.98)
MP1 ($4.76)
MP2 ($3.37)
MP3 ($2.09)
CO ($0.36)
Button ($2.93)
Hero (SB) ($5.81)
BB ($2.66)
UTG ($5.20)
Preflop: Hero is SB with J

, K

, 9

, 8

UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP3 (poster) checks, 2 folds, Hero bets $0.06, BB calls $0.04, UTG calls $0.04, MP1 calls $0.04, MP3 (poster) calls $0.04
Flop: ($0.30) K

, 4

, 7

(5 players)
Hero bets $0.10, BB calls $0.10, 2 folds, MP3 raises to $0.70, Hero calls $0.60, 1 fold
Turn: ($1.80) A

(2 players)
Hero ?

 

[Makwa]

What would you put him on? And what would you do?

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
UTG+1 ($3.98)
MP1 ($4.76)
MP2 ($3.37)
MP3 ($2.09)
CO ($0.36)
Button ($2.93)
Hero (SB) ($5.81)
BB ($2.66)
UTG ($5.20)
Preflop: Hero is SB with J

, K

, 9

, 8

UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP3 (poster) checks, 2 folds, Hero bets $0.06, BB calls $0.04, UTG calls $0.04, MP1 calls $0.04, MP3 (poster) calls $0.04
Flop: ($0.30) K

, 4

, 7

(5 players)
Hero bets $0.10, BB calls $0.10, 2 folds, MP3 raises to $0.70, Hero calls $0.60, 1 fold
Turn: ($1.80) A

(2 players)
Hero ?

He has a set, or AK, or 56 (not as likely with the raise). I would not have raised PF OOP with that hand it is not strong. Flop was not great and MP3s raise would have said 'set' to me and I would prob be out. Turn is a terrible card, so either check and pray or bluff at pot, I choose door number one (and u cant call a big bet of course).

Awful hand gone wrong

 

[nevadanick]

He has a set, or AK, or 56 (not as likely with the raise). I would not have raised PF OOP with that hand it is not strong. Flop was not great and MP3s raise would have said 'set' to me and I would prob be out. Turn is a terrible card, so either check and pray or bluff at pot, I choose door number one (and u cant call a big bet of course).

Awful hand gone wrong

This is the problem with micro stakes. Doesn't matter if it's Holdem, Omaha or otherwise. For all practical purposes, what is the difference between .02 and .06 ?? How do you play serious mind games with 4 cents?

This is the obvious argument from NL players, but even then the table stakes of ~$2.00 makes it very difficult to predict any villain's holdings or reasoning. More often than not, it simply comes down to "we'll never know".

 

[Marginal]

What would you put him on? And what would you do?

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
UTG+1 ($3.98)
MP1 ($4.76)
MP2 ($3.37)
MP3 ($2.09)
CO ($0.36)
Button ($2.93)
Hero (SB) ($5.81)
BB ($2.66)
UTG ($5.20)
Preflop: Hero is SB with J

, K

, 9

, 8

UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP3 (poster) checks, 2 folds, Hero bets $0.06, BB calls $0.04, UTG calls $0.04, MP1 calls $0.04, MP3 (poster) calls $0.04
Flop: ($0.30) K

, 4

, 7

(5 players)
Hero bets $0.10, BB calls $0.10, 2 folds, MP3 raises to $0.70, Hero calls $0.60, 1 fold
Turn: ($1.80) A

(2 players)
Hero ?

1) pretty bad hand to open

2) if you are going to open, open for pot

3) do not bet that flop, you have nothing

4) when he raises, you still have nothing and should fold

5) if your plan is to rep AAxx on the turn, you should realize that this is the micros and ppl do not fold/ are calling stations and do not care what you represent

6) give up and not waste any more money

7) fold preflop

 

[c9h13no3]

What would you put him on? And what would you do?

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
UTG+1 ($3.98)
MP1 ($4.76)
MP2 ($3.37)
MP3 ($2.09)
CO ($0.36)
Button ($2.93)
Hero (SB) ($5.81)
BB ($2.66)
UTG ($5.20)
Preflop: Hero is SB with J

, K

, 9

, 8

UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP3 (poster) checks, 2 folds, Hero bets $0.06, BB calls $0.04, UTG calls $0.04, MP1 calls $0.04, MP3 (poster) calls $0.04
Flop: ($0.30) K

, 4

, 7

(5 players)
Hero bets $0.10, BB calls $0.10, 2 folds, MP3 raises to $0.70, Hero calls $0.60, 1 fold
Turn: ($1.80) A

(2 players)
Hero ?

Put your opponent on a hand you can beat (lets say, 4568) and call.

 

[Marginal]

Been playing some shallow stack poker today, just trying to see if it was beatable or if the rake will just swallow all profits. The play is really bad, worst than normal and people just over commit themselves on way too marginal hands. I think in holdem the rake might be too much but for PLO I think it is very beatable.

 

[Johnnybmoto]

First one online

Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - 9 players - View hand 495622
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Pre Flop: (1.4 SB) Hero is MP1 with 3 :heart: 2 :spade: A :spade: A :heart:
3 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, BTN calls, 1 fold, BB calls

Flop: (6.4 SB) 7 :diamond: 8 :spade: Q :spade: (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BTN raises, BB folds, Hero 3-bets, BTN calls

Turn: (6.2 BB) 4 :club: (2 players)
Hero bets, BTN calls

River: (8.2 BB) Q :club: (2 players)
Hero bets, BTN calls

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Blowing off steam... caught a boat to the kingdom.

Poker Stars $0.01/$0.02 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players

MP: $1.68
CO: $4.12
BTN: $0.10
Hero (SB): $5.02
BB: $2.00
UTG: $9.81

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is SB with T:diamond: A:diamond: 8:diamond: J:spade:
UTG calls $0.02, MP calls $0.02, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.06, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.04, MP calls $0.04, BTN calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.26) Q:diamond: A:spade: A:heart: (4 players)
Hero bets $0.08, UTG folds, MP folds, BTN calls $0.04 all in

Turn: ($0.34) J:diamond: (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($0.34) K:diamond: (2 players - 1 is all in)

-edit-
Oh, and yeah... I posted this knowing fully that some of you soulless poker guardians will not be able to stop yourselves from tearing it up... fold pre blah blah freaking blah... so have fun.