Beyond NLHE -January Chat Thread

[nevadanick]

Txs Nevada for the HU...

OK I'm getting confused already... too many variants being discussed at once...

altho better than having one variant thread lost in 100 nlhe ....

Starters are crucial in all these games, more than NLHE where position and stack sizes can make any 2 playable sometimes...

Before discussing postflop strategy should we not talk starters?

Yes, i agree.

Omaha: Wraps, double suited high cards are good. AA or KK not so. Need six combinations strong, not just a good HE hand with rag rag...

O8: A2 or A3, with two other good cards hi or lo, again looking for double suited.

Stud8: I go by Todd's Platinum Rule: If not 3 cards that can lead to a scoop, don't play (depending on what's showing on table and your board of course).

More to it than that, but its a start (lol)

Never been much of a reader and found playing countless hours live made up for a lot of reading . Attended UHC (University of Hard Cards). Don't know if there is a 'rule' for it but I use a general application for stud hi of needing 2 cards that have high improvement potential, based on the visible board cards. The more of my 'outs' in play elsewhere on the boards, the less I am interested in joining a pot where improvement potential is minimal or reduced even WITH 2 of the 3 being good starter cards.

 

[nevadanick]

Hopefully we can all survive the mish-mosh of games discussed here, but at least so far it is void of nlhe comments ...

All forms of O, O8 and PLO will be of interest of course, but there are many HORSE players and 7/8-game players that haven't even found this thread yet. Stud, stud8 and razz have already 'mentioned'. We may need to live with weeding through the various forms and formats until CC admin agrees to give variant games some deserved separation ...

(If you know of anyone who plays non-nlhe games regularly and would be interested, please PM them this thread link, thx)
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/general-poker-13/beyond-nlhe-january-chat-thread-168666/

All forms of interest are invited to participate here ... for now. (except nlhe ... )

This won't be an easy task folks. But some progress has been made.
Current game stats from the January calendar offer CC members FR's and CC buy-in events....

nlhe ...... 42
badugi.... 1
stud8..... 1
7-game.. 1
omaha... 1
8-game.. 1

 

[Makwa]

Never been much of a reader and found playing countless hours live made up for a lot of reading . Attended UHC (University of Hard Cards). Don't know if there is a 'rule' for it but I use a general application for stud hi of needing 2 cards that have high improvement potential, based on the visible board cards. The more of my 'outs' in play elsewhere on the boards, the less I am interested in joining a pot where improvement potential is minimal or reduced even WITH 2 of the 3 being good starter cards.

Stud Hi another variant. Playin that a lot these days. Always did in skul too (never went to class). Skul caf was our casino... remember Guts? Played lots of Stud hi lo also, but u had to declare and if u go Pig and lose one way u lose it all (sniff)...

My starters 7 Card Stud (varies with what table is showing; what outs available): Minimum 99 under or JJ split, 3 connectors hi to a str8, 3 to fl with 1 high card or A, str fl draws (of course). Almost never lo prs unless hidden, pref w hi card showing. No lo str8s.

Sometimes raise w hi card (over the table) showing to steal in position. Or scare card on 4th. But I getting ahead of myself...

 

[c9h13no3]

Stud Hi another variant. Playin that a lot these days.

My starters (varies with what table is showing; what outs available): Minimum 99 under or JJ split, 3 connectors hi to a str8, 3 to fl with 1 high card or A, str fl draws (of course). Almost never lo prs unless hidden, pref w hi card showing. No lo str8s.

Sometimes raise w hi card showing to steal in position. Or scare card on 4th. But I getting ahead of myself...

Listing starting hand charts for the stud games is seriously lol retarded IMO (no offense). The cards that are out change things SOOOOO much. I open fold split jacks if there are 3 door cards higher than a jack behind me in stud hi for example.

 

[nevadanick]

Stud Hi another variant. Playin that a lot these days.

My ring/cash play has evolved exclusively back to stud hi. I prefer it over stud8 at the micro stakes since the players are not as laggy as the stud8 players who seem willing to cap a round on almost any 3 cards.

Micro stud hi has been a steady BR builder for me. Since I quit playing any nlhe ring games, I have NOT gone bust on any of my rolls built originally from mostly CC freerolls. A gr8 feeling, since I refuse to deposit online.

 

[Makwa]

Listing starting hand charts for the stud games is seriously lol retarded IMO (no offense). The cards that are out change things SOOOOO much. I open fold split jacks if there are 3 door cards higher than a jack behind me in stud hi for example.

Use of the term "retarded" is offensive enough, thanks.

You did not read my post, just pounced on it. Of course starters are determined by what's showing. That's what I said:

"My starters 7 Card Stud (varies with what table is showing; what outs available):" True, I should have said "minimum" starters...

Of course fold Js w three overs behind, particularly if u see a raise coming. Txs.

 

[Makwa]

My ring/cash play has evolved exclusively back to stud hi. I prefer it over stud8 at the micro stakes since the players are not as laggy as the stud8 players who seem willing to cap a round on almost any 3 cards.

Micro stud hi has been a steady BR builder for me. Since I quit playing any nlhe ring games, I have NOT gone bust on any of my rolls built originally from mostly CC freerolls. A gr8 feeling, since I refuse to deposit online.

Both work well for me, are my bread and butter ring games, and you are right, hi lo can be more LAGgy, stud is tighter game (but more stealing lol). I know some of the regs from years back...

Ya micro (I hang between .50/1 and 1/2, have gone as high as 10/20). In my experience .25 .50 is way fishy and can pay off well, especially multitable.

I am comfortable 2-4 tables in each game. Most of the regs are also on more than 1; its sort of like one big game spread over 4 tables sometimes!!

 

[c9h13no3]

You did not read my post, just pounced on it.

Yeah, I skim things too much. But the big point still stands that one of the biggest leaks new stud players have is they don't realize just how much hands change in value with different upcards.

And in my experience, you need to play tighter in the stud 8 games. Stud hi, chasing is more profitable since you're chasing the whole pot.

 

[Makwa]

Yeah, I skim things too much. But the big point still stands that one of the biggest leaks new stud players have is they don't realize just how much hands change in value with different upcards.

And in my experience, you need to play tighter in the stud 8 games. Stud hi, chasing is more profitable since you're chasing the whole pot.

Ya gotta love those stud noobs....

I agree hi lo should be played way tight, using the Platinum Rule, but for some reason there seem to be more LAGgy chasers at 8. Hmmm... When I said Stud hi is a "tighter game" above I meant, like Nevada, that the players tend to be tighter, not that you always have to play tight.

Chasing is more worthwhile in Hi but... chasing is chasing... once I spot a true chaser (CS) I zero in and follow them... when to chase is an important topic in itself. It should certainly be rarely...

 

[c9h13no3]

when to chase is an important topic in itself. It should certainly be rarely...

In stud hi, you're often getting odds to chase to the river. In fact, quite often 3 outs is enough to call on 6th street. For example:

A2_2 vs. K9_K. You're behind, but should chase to the river in most situations if the pot is heads up. So saying you should rarely chase is fairly wrong.

 

[kmixer]

Just as a followup I looked on FTP and they only have 6-max on FTP. So at least at FTP you will need to work 01/02 if you want to play full ring.

You might be able to pull off 02/05 but BRM states you should be playng 02/04 ( I guess that is 02/05 at some places) and I would suggest 01/02 multitable instead until you are really beating the games.

 

[Makwa]

In stud hi, you're often getting odds to chase to the river. In fact, quite often 3 outs is enough to call on 6th street. For example:

A2_2 vs. K9_K. You're behind, but should chase to the river in most situations if the pot is heads up. So saying you should rarely chase is fairly wrong.

I don't chase that often... The example above lacks a lot of detail... I agree this might be a 6th St. call to river, but I don't think I would have made it to 6th with that hand if I know he has another K, it depends on a lot of things: Did I start with 2 and catch 3 or 4 to a fl or str8 draw?, were there other As, 2s or Ks on board, what are villain's tendencies (will he try to buy w K high?)...

In general if I know I am behind I don't chase. I might if some of the conditions above were right (and his cards were dead to some extent)...

If you r saying A2_2 vs. K9_K, just based on card ranks, gives you odds to chase from 3rd to the river, I don't get it. Again, how did you get to 6th in the first place? If u know he has Ks, particularly if you saw another A or 2 on board, this is a fold on 3rd to me.


(DAMMIT what is wrong with the text boxes these days... cursor gets lost in smilies at right, can't see the text what is happening??)

 

[c9h13no3]

but I don't think I would have made it to 6th with that hand if I know he has another K

Then you should read 7 Card Stud for Advanced Players, because this is an absolutely standard spot where you get heads upon 3rd street and go to the river. David Sklansky said so

And its profitable because of the following reasons:

1) You're only a small underdog on 3rd (55:45 or so if your cards are live).
2) You put your opponent in a reverse implied odds situation (he'll lose a lot when he makes kings up vs. your aces up, but you'll lose very little when you don't improve), and thus your hand is a playing favorite.
3) You can make a dominating two pair, that he will have to make trips or better to draw out of.

There are lots of situations like this playing stud hi. Any 4 broadway cards on 4th, small pairs with an over card kicker, most flush draws, ect. where you're getting odds to chase to the river. The key is to be able to discern when you're getting odds to chase down to the river and when you're not.

The reason why more people chase in stud 8 is because their draw is a lot more likely to hit (low draws have tons of outs). However, they're usually only drawing to get their money back. So when you chase in stud 8, you really need double the pot odds that you would in stud hi, because you likely will only win half as much.

And that's why stud 8 can be so profitable. Because its easier to get people to chase without odds, because they can only win half.

 

[Makwa]

^^^ Read it, txs. Long time ago. Can u give me pages where he discusses the situation/odds you outlined?

I guess you now know if we r ever playing, that if I am calling u to the river when u r betting Ks and my doorcard is a 2, I am slowplaying a set or AA, or have str8 or fl draw also (he he).

The other situations you describe I would be more inclined to chase. Again, depending on cards I see and have seen already.

 

[Makwa]

The reason why more people chase in stud 8 is because their draw is a lot more likely to hit (low draws have tons of outs). However, they're usually only drawing to get their money back. So when you chase in stud 8, you really need double the pot odds that you would in stud hi, because you likely will only win half as much.

And that's why stud 8 can be so profitable. Because its easier to get people to chase without odds, because they can only win half.

Righto. And they do chase a lot... particularly the noobs. There are also a lot of solid playahs out there... Key is to know who is who...

 

[Makwa]

"And its profitable because of the following reasons:

1) You're only a small underdog on 3rd (55:45 or so if your cards are live)."

Back to the situation you described. All the calculators I have tried put these numbers at closer to 60:40, and they diminish as blanks hit on further streets. Talking rainbow.

I like the reverse implied odds u describe but still dont like the idea of repeatedly chasing with a 40% chance. I also take into account that the reverse odds sound fine if he catches another pr and you catch aces, but that is a long shot, considering he can hit another K, or might hit a str8 or flush depending on board. Myself, I want other draws in this spot or no go.

Sklansky does discuss this chase (and actually suggests raising with underpair to get HU in this situation), but I don't see where he suggests chasing to the river if all u have is a lo pr and A kicker...

 

[c9h13no3]

Sklansky does like this chase (and actually suggests raising with underpair to get HU in this situation), but I don't see where he suggests chasing to the river if all u have is a lo pr and A kicker...

Page 44, in the "Playing Small & Medium Pairs" section.

Here's an example. You have A2_2. It is generally worth it to go all the way against a probable pair lower than aces in a heads up situation provided your opponent does not improve and your cards remain live.

And yes, we lose equity on later streets when we catch blanks, but this is offset by the fact that there is more money in the pot, so we don't need as good odds to chase to the river.

 

[Makwa]

Page 44, in the "Playing Small & Medium Pairs" section.



And yes, we lose equity on later streets when we catch blanks, but this is offset by the fact that there is more money in the pot, so we don't need as good odds to chase to the river.

Txs, yes I see it now, but I don't buy it.

HU we can win say 110% on our money if we catch by river (counting antes, roughly). In an ideal situation where he catches 2nd pr and we catch A or 2. So 40% of the time we make 110% of what we put in, and 60% we lose 100%. Even at the 45:55 odds you mention it is a losing proposition. How is that good?

 

[slycbnew]

I still don't have a good feel for pf. I know I could've 3bet that, it's perfectly acceptable (8hi rundown would be more questionable maybe), but I wanted to play multiway cuz of the donks. Probably not the best place to do that tho, I'll hit too many non-nut hands. Hoping marginal, Tygran, BBB, or any of the other more exp PLOers wanders in here...

PLO players, I ended up posting the pf question in HA, pls comment... https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/25-pl-o-6-max-3bet-168740/

 

[c9h13no3]

HU we can win say 110% on our money if we catch by river (counting antes, roughly). In an ideal situation where he catches 2nd pr and we catch A or 2. So 40% of the time we make 110% of what we put in, and 60% we lose 100%. Even at the 45:55 odds you mention it is a losing proposition. How is that good?

You don't put the same amount of money in the pot when you lose? I don't know about you, but I'm not calling the river un-improved with a pair of ducks. Usually when we win, we get to put in a raise on a big bet street, and when we lose, we just fold the river. So there's actually a 3 big bet net difference in outcomes.

Seriously dude, do you think Sklansky is making this stuff up? Would you rather have a pair of queens against his king up?

 

[the lab man]

Always wondered and I have asked before why we dont have a section for "other games". I have no idea how to play Omaha or stud well but love playing O/8 or Stud 8 and Razz.

I really think this forum is ready for a seperate section on "other games'

I think there should be enough interest

Thoughts???

 

[cAPSLOCK]

First of all I am loving this thread. I like PLO PLO8 Razz and am trying to learn the other stud games.

I still love NLHE too, but I find a lot of pleasure in the other games.

Good idea IMHO.

FWIW I have the best winrate in PLO8 over any other game type I play. But I also play 10cent and under in the big bet games. Mostly under.

NLO8/PLO8 or LO8?

I have never really understood NL in either Omaha varient. It just seems likre a recipe for shoving stacks around the table and playing huge amounts of rake.

Anyone here play it seriously?

 

[slycbnew]

Always wondered and I have asked before why we dont have a section for "other games". I have no idea how to play Omaha or stud well but love playing O/8 or Stud 8 and Razz.

I really think this forum is ready for a seperate section on "other games'

I think there should be enough interest

Thoughts???

In order to justify another forum/sub-forum, you'd want to be able to demonstrate interest/activity/posts/threads around the other games - the more people posting on other games, the better you'd be able to justify it. I know there are quite a few of us playing games other than NLHE, but I don't see a lot of posts regarding games other than NLHE - it'd be a bummer to have a forum that nobody uses .

So, anyone who's interested in the idea of a forum/sub-forum for other games, get out there and post hands, strategy threads, questions, whatever! You can cross post these back here so that we have a common place to find those posts related to the other games.

 

[slycbnew]

I have never really understood NL in either Omaha varient. It just seems likre a recipe for shoving stacks around the table and playing huge amounts of rake.

Anyone here play it seriously?

I think BBB does, and maybe a couple of other people. Like you, I keep imagining pf shoves and shuddering...

 

[c9h13no3]

I think BBB does, and maybe a couple of other people. Like you, I keep imagining pf shoves and shuddering...

Yeah, there's a lot less skill involved, because you just make two pair or better, plus the nut low and jam your whole stack in.