* January's Juxtaposed Pokahz Chat *

ChuckTs · Jan 13, 2009

Chris_TC said:
Hmm, I play 24/20, aggression factor just under 3, WTS 28%, attempt to steal 40%, and my red line is massively negative.

I'm curious about other 6-max players. What does your red line look like?
Filtering my last 50K hands for NL50+ and between 3-6 players, my red line is pretty much exactly a mirror image of my green line, meaning that if my red line were breakeven, my winrate would be twice as high.

In math terms:
Non-showdown = -0.5 * Showdown (I lose half as much @ NSD as I win @ SD)
Non-showdown = -1.0 * Winrate

I'm specifically curious about Chuck's stats.

25/22/3.25, 27 wtsd, 50 ats. Slightly less aggro than that at 200nl (my main game) since I tend to go a little crazy at the smaller stakes and at 400. Red line is slightly positive:

bw07507 · Jan 13, 2009

Chris_TC said:
Hmm, I play 24/20, aggression factor just under 3, WTS 28%, attempt to steal 40%, and my red line is massively negative.

I'm curious about other 6-max players. What does your red line look like?
Filtering my last 50K hands for NL50+ and between 3-6 players, my red line is pretty much exactly a mirror image of my green line, meaning that if my red line were breakeven, my winrate would be twice as high.

In math terms:
Non-showdown = -0.5 * Showdown (I lose half as much @ NSD as I win @ SD)
Non-showdown = -1.0 * Winrate

I'm specifically curious about Chuck's stats.

I don't have a huge sample at 6max, and I didnt really take it seriously til I started playing 100NL 6max, so I put my graph there. My red line is pretty much break even.

I play 22/19.5/2.5 with a WTSD of 29% and 40% Att. To Steal. I've been playing a little tighter (~20/18) lately as I've started to 12 table, and I think I started doing that around hand 50,000 so NSD has been positive since then.

BelgoSuisse · Jan 13, 2009

bw07507 said:
I play 22/19.5/2.5 with a WTSD of 29% and 40% Att. To Steal. I've been playing a little tighter (~20/18) lately as I've started to 12 table, and I think I started doing that around hand 50,000 so NSD has been positive since then.

That's a very good point. The tighter you play the higher your NSD should be.

widowmaker89 · Jan 13, 2009

I am at work and only have roughly 25K hands @100nl so this is probably a useless post but im bored, but I have a very slightly negative red line. I play 100NL 6 max and beating it a tad over 5 BB/100(a hugely unsuccessful drunk shot at 200NL is why tableratings disagrees). I play a 24/21 FWIW. I can provide other stats this evening if anyone cares, topic still relevent.

Chris_TC · Jan 13, 2009

I don't get it, I must be doing something wrong.
I just played a session. C-bet success = 44% (despite c-bet of only 64%). 2-barrel success = 20%. When you get snapped off by a limp-calling AK in BvB on 34556 on three streets, you kinda start to doubt the effectiveness of barreling. I'm lost.

ChuckTs · Jan 13, 2009

Triple barreling 34556 really isn't a good idea at all...

Would be interested to see people's barreling %s. I'm sure it's one of the bigger factors in nsd winnings.

vanquish · Jan 13, 2009

cAPSLOCK said:
Do you ever post a chart?

What name do you play under? Where do you play?

Will you ever come to a 02nl stars spewathon and play with the little people?

love,
cAPS

yea if u look around the chat threads from sept-oct i have some graphs but they're not very good

i played under ThatsWhatHappens on ipoker but i stopped after i lost all my money

no

Jagsti · Jan 13, 2009

Chris_TC said:
I don't get it, I must be doing something wrong.
I just played a session. C-bet success = 44% (despite c-bet of only 64%). 2-barrel success = 20%. When you get snapped off by a limp-calling AK in BvB on 34556 on three streets, you kinda start to doubt the effectiveness of barreling. I'm lost.

Our stats seem quite similar, and I'm bemused as your are at the nsd winnings. Maybe the likes of Chuck, BW, Belgo, float better i/p taking pots down on later streets, maybe they barell more. It frustrates the f'ck out of me I know that.

Fwiw worth my barrel %age is 36% with a 40% success rate.

BelgoSuisse · Jan 13, 2009

widowmaker89 said:
why tableratings disagrees

Anyway, tableratings is only moderately accurate. I think it missed about 1k hands of mine over the last month or so.

Chris_TC · Jan 13, 2009

ChuckTs said:
Triple barreling 34556 really isn't a good idea at all...

It was Blind vs. Blind against a limper. I can not have 35, 45, 57, 67, 52, 23, 24, 56, 22, 33, 44, 66, 77 or even JJ+? I raise any 2 preflop. If that's not a good spot to barrel then I really am lost.

BelgoSuisse · Jan 13, 2009

Chris_TC said:
It was Blind vs. Blind against a limper. I can not have 35, 45, 57, 67, 52, 23, 24, 56, 33, 44, 66, 77 or even JJ+? I raise any 2 preflop. If that's not a good spot to barrel then I really am lost.

either your image sucks, villain is a station, or he has a superuser account. Also, people never believe you when it's BvB.

ChuckTs · Jan 13, 2009

If you raise any two pf, then your range on the flop contains a million missed overcards.

I don't see how your range matters anyways against someone who's bad enough to limp-call AK in the SB and call down 3 barrels unimproved. He's not thinking about your range.

What's more important is his range; after he calls the flop the turn is just a terrible card to barrel. If there are still ace high hands in his range, I guess barrel again, but once he calls again, I really don't see how barreling river can take it down at all.

switch0723 · Jan 13, 2009

wtf at how rigged my exam was this morning, I swear it must have been a joke exam since it was multiple choice and hte first question was how many lecturers have taught you this course this year? WTF, i didn't go to half the lectures so its clearly rigged against me and a weird question

feitr · Jan 13, 2009

Jagsti said:
also whenever I have tried to significantly improve my NSD winnings, it's usually at the expense of my SD winnings.

Yea same with me. I've become a loser in NSD pots, even tho i play really quite aggro. Seems it doesn't take that long into a match for my opponent to become somewhat of a station and no longer believe me, so then I can get alot of thin value, but i don't tend to win that many NSD pots (no point constantly 3 barreling stationary players when you can just play it safer and go for value). But it is fine...so many guys at .5/1 and 1/2 are very spewy so they leak horribly in SD pots, but it is pretty hard to turn a profit in NSD pots (you can't win in NSD if somebody doesn't fold/jams a wider range of hands). I don't think it is that big of a problem if you adapt correctly, ie. when your image is bad (aka you are going to lose in NSD) you can get alot of thin value in SD pots.

cAPSLOCK · Jan 13, 2009

Those of you pondering NSD and puzzled over similar vpip/pfr/ag cb/ftc/etc numbers... Perhaps how often the GO to showdown is related?

WVHillbilly · Jan 13, 2009

cAPSLOCK said:
Those of you pondering NSD and puzzled over similar vpip/pfr/ag cb/ftc/etc numbers... Perhaps how often the GO to showdown is related?

There is no doubt that it is. A bluffy, calling-station like myself will have a higher NSD line (and sadly a lower SD line) than someone who can actually fold.

Jagsti · Jan 13, 2009

dimets said:
you need to determine the range of cards, which plays sopernik.nablyudat for his game, check it By using a combination of check-raise

Say Wat!

cAPSLOCK · Jan 13, 2009

vanquish said:
but i stopped after i lost all my money

Are you not playing again now? I don't mean to be nosey, but I can't tell if you are tearing up the felt, or staying away from it.

cAPS

vanquish · Jan 13, 2009

i'm playing 50nl fr

Dwilius · Jan 13, 2009

I'm pretty sure vanq is a gimmick account and he doesn't play poker at all, cAPs

vanquish · Jan 13, 2009

i'm chuckts gimmick account

Chris_TC · Jan 13, 2009

ChuckTs said:
If you raise any two pf, then your range on the flop contains a million missed overcards.

My range on the flop, but not my range on the turn and river.

I don't see how your range matters anyways against someone who's bad enough to limp-call AK in the SB and call down 3 barrels unimproved. He's not thinking about your range.

Well, when he's only thinking about his own hand, what does he see? A paired 4-straight board, and he has A high. He doesn't need to think about my range to see that his hand sucks ass.

Jagsti · Jan 13, 2009

BTW if anyone want to discuss stats i made a thread about it

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/official-poker-stats-thread-139956/

Chris_TC · Jan 13, 2009

I play this hand against a notorious fish:

Pre-Flop: Hero is UTG with K

K

Hero raises to $30, 2 folds, BTN calls $30, 2 folds

Flop: ($75) 7

3

7

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $50, Hero raises to $150, BTN calls $100

Turn: ($375) 8

(2 players)
Hero bets $180, BTN calls $180

River: ($735) 4

(2 players)
Hero bets $400, BTN calls $383.25 and is all-in

Results: $1,501.50 pot ($3 rake)
Hero showed K

K

(two pairs, Kings and Sevens) and lost (-$743.25 net)
BTN showed 5

6

(a straight, Four to Eight) and won $1,498.50 ($755.25 net)
_______________________________________

So a couple orbits later, this hand occurs against the same opponent. Is the river bet too thin?

Hero (CO): $1,543 (154.3 bb)
BTN: $200 (20 bb)
SB: $1,624.75 (162.5 bb)
BB: $1,000 (100 bb)
MP: $1,052 (105.2 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is CO with 8

8

MP folds, Hero raises to $30, BTN folds, SB calls $25, BB folds

Flop: ($70) J

J

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $60, SB calls $60

Turn: ($190) 2

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $125, SB calls $125

River: ($440) 2

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $285, SB raises to $620, Hero folds

Results: $1,010 pot ($2 rake)
SB mucked and won $1,008 ($508 net)

vanquish · Jan 13, 2009

i hate river there

*** January's Juxtaposed Pokahz Chat ***

ChuckTs

Legend

Attachments

bw07507

Legend

Attachments

BelgoSuisse

Legend

widowmaker89

Visionary

Chris_TC

Cardschat Elite

ChuckTs

Legend

vanquish

Legend

Jagsti

I'm sweet enough!

BelgoSuisse

Legend

Chris_TC

Cardschat Elite

BelgoSuisse

Legend

ChuckTs

Legend

switch0723

Cardschat Elite

feitr

Legend

cAPSLOCK

Cardschat Elite

WVHillbilly

Legend

Jagsti

I'm sweet enough!

cAPSLOCK

Cardschat Elite

vanquish

Legend

Dwilius

CardsChat Regular

vanquish

Legend

Chris_TC

Cardschat Elite

Jagsti

I'm sweet enough!

Chris_TC

Cardschat Elite

vanquish

Legend

About CardsChat

Our Community

Our Site

* January's Juxtaposed Pokahz Chat *