* January's Juxtaposed Pokahz Chat *

zachvac · Jan 13, 2009

Chris_TC said:
Well, when he's only thinking about his own hand, what does he see? A paired 4-straight board, and he has A high. He doesn't need to think about my range to see that his hand sucks ass.

You're giving idiots way too much credit. It was probably like this:

"omgomgomg AK ok don't want to scare him away, so let's just call. Damn missed flop but we could still hit A or K. Turn missed too but still one more card, never know when it may hit. Damn missed river but omg I have AK and if the rabbit doesn't have a pair I'll win plus I can go brag to my friends about how I made an amazing soulread with AK. ok I call, I win? YES, I knew it"

ChuckTs · Jan 13, 2009

Chris_TC said:
My range on the flop, but not my range on the turn and river.

ofc not, but your range is still massive on the flop. Regardless, he's not thinking about ranges.

Chris_TC said:
Well, when he's only thinking about his own hand, what does he see? A paired 4-straight board, and he has A high. He doesn't need to think about my range to see that his hand sucks ass.

AK was one hand out of his range, and I suppose 3barreling against that specific hand will get folds some of the time, but he's got 6x, 2x/3x, occasional overpairs, occasional ace high/other high card hands and occasional slowplayed monsters way more often than AK or JT or whatever. He doesn't fold any of those hands except for the overs (evidently only sometimes) to a double barrel or a triple barrel.

Overcards and ace high will often float the flop but will fold the turn ("he's probably just c-betting, let's call and see if we hit a pair on the turn," turn blanks, "oh I missed, now I give up" 'logic'.) Basically what I'm getting at is that someone who is bad enough to call down with AK is someone who you should almost never follow up with a river bet against. He's never folding any pair.

I'm curious what you expect to fold out on the turn and riv.

Chris_TC · Jan 13, 2009

zachvac said:
You're giving idiots way too much credit.

Yeah, I think you're right.

Chris_TC · Jan 13, 2009

ChuckTs said:
He's never folding any pair.

Well, I thought he would fold even pocket 88 or something, but apparently that's not the case.
Specifically, he check-instacalled both flop+turn which is generally a sign of huge weakness for most fish. That's the main reason why I ended up firing the river. Also, the 4-straight made it seem like a good spot but I guess I was wrong about that.

Chris_TC · Jan 13, 2009

vanquish said:
i hate river there

Can you explain?
As a fish, he's not going to fold a full house, so I thought he'd call with 33, 44, 55, 66, 77.
This leaves 99, Jx, TT, QQ, KK and AA. Even a player like him re-raises KK and AA a fair amount preflop, so I should be ahead of at least 50% of his calling range, no?

cAPSLOCK · Jan 13, 2009

D'wilius said:
I'm pretty sure vanq is a gimmick account and he doesn't play poker at all, cAPs

Whuchu talkin' bout D'wilius!?!

vanquish · Jan 13, 2009

i meant i hate that river decision because a fish can even c/r playing the board if he thinks ur somehow trying to bluff him, but a bet might still be good. it might be standard as played, but i think i check back river because i would get so confused playing against a fish rather than a thinking player if he raises

ChuckTs · Jan 13, 2009

Yeah that's an interesting spot. Some more specific stats would help. If he's a spazzy fish I'll likely bet-call without fistpump, but otherwise we bet-fold if he's passive.

eNTy · Jan 13, 2009

Good session for once.
Was down for a bit, hit some coolers and a badly played hand but got unstuck in the end and I'm happy with that. Looking to play another big session later and tomorrow too.

Last hand of the session and I'm kicking myself cause I played it soooo bad.
Villain is a reg witg 14/7/1 ish stats.

UTG+1: $34.75 (139 bb)
UTG+2: $1.79 (7.2 bb)
MP1: $15.32 (61.3 bb)
MP2: $4.75 (19 bb)
MP3: $4.65 (18.6 bb)
CO: $16.92 (67.7 bb)
BTN: $25.20 (100.8 bb)
SB: $6.09 (24.4 bb)
BB: $25.89 (103.6 bb)
Hero (UTG): $37.23 (148.9 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is UTG with A

A

Hero raises to $1, UTG+1 calls $1, 7 folds, BB calls $0.75

Flop: ($3.10) A

T

7

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks

Turn: ($3.10) 5

(3 players)
BB bets $1.75, Hero calls $1.75, UTG+1 folds

River: ($6.60) 9

(2 players)
BB bets $2.75, Hero raises to $7, BB calls $4.25

Results: $20.60 pot ($1.03 rake)
Hero showed A

A

(three of a kind, Aces) and won $19.57 ($9.82 net)
BB mucked 7

7

(three of a kind, Sevens) and lost (-$9.75 net)

Chris_TC · Jan 13, 2009

vanquish said:
i meant i hate that river decision because a fish can even c/r playing the board if he thinks ur somehow trying to bluff him

Holy crap, now that would be frickin disgusting. I have been getting check-raised a lot on the river lately, both by fish and by strong players, and whenever I've called them down they've shown me the (near-)nuts. It's quite sickening really.

Stats over 220 hands:
31/13/1.7, WTS = 24%

blankoblanco · Jan 13, 2009

eNTy said:
Good session for once.
Was down for a bit, hit some coolers and a badly played hand but got unstuck in the end and I'm happy with that. Looking to play another big session later and tomorrow too.

Last hand of the session and I'm kicking myself cause I played it soooo bad.
Villain is a reg witg 14/7/1 ish stats.

UTG+1: $34.75 (139 bb)
UTG+2: $1.79 (7.2 bb)
MP1: $15.32 (61.3 bb)
MP2: $4.75 (19 bb)
MP3: $4.65 (18.6 bb)
CO: $16.92 (67.7 bb)
BTN: $25.20 (100.8 bb)
SB: $6.09 (24.4 bb)
BB: $25.89 (103.6 bb)
Hero (UTG): $37.23 (148.9 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is UTG with A

A

Hero raises to $1, UTG+1 calls $1, 7 folds, BB calls $0.75

Flop: ($3.10) A

T

7

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks

Turn: ($3.10) 5

(3 players)
BB bets $1.75, Hero calls $1.75, UTG+1 folds

River: ($6.60) 9

(2 players)
BB bets $2.75, Hero raises to $7, BB calls $4.25

Results: $20.60 pot ($1.03 rake)
Hero showed A

A

(three of a kind, Aces) and won $19.57 ($9.82 net)
BB mucked 7

7

(three of a kind, Sevens) and lost (-$9.75 net)

enty, for the love of money, stop slowplaying every single hand!!! i don't know if i can remember you posting a big hand that you didn't slowplay. 100 BB stacks + a hand to play for stacks = you don't want to miss value on any street. even though you have the deck semi-crippled, flop is drawy enough to bet, tens will call, the other A will call, draws including some gutshots will peel. however what is far worse than that is not raising the turn

stop! slowplaying! big hands are for big pots, build them!!!

and don't replace your checks with tiny little bets either! just bet like a man, they'll call you if they have anything. if they didn't have anything then you probably miss out on a possible whopping 1 little bet where they bluff into you. soooo much more important to maximize your chance to win entire stacks when they connected

ChuckTs · Jan 13, 2009

Yeah river check-raises are almost always the nuts unless you're up against a really tough reg or something. That said, I think people do really really weird things on xxx flops, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if he had a complete bluff there.

enty: barf. No offense obviously, just constructive criticism, but you played this hand horribly. Bet bet bet that board. If it's A72 rainbow then maybe check back the flop, but you have to bet about any turn if you do.

vanquish · Jan 13, 2009

enty you butchered that hand too

blankoblanco · Jan 13, 2009

enty if i see you make one more terrible slowplay, im going to start rumors all over the internet that you have sex with dead people

WVHillbilly · Jan 13, 2009

Enty I thought we talked about your necrophilia and you swore you had it under control. I've never felt so used. Oh yeah and that's a horribly played hand by both you and your opponent. How do you not manage to get stacks in flopped set over set?????

zachvac · Jan 13, 2009

Hate to beat a dead horse (although I did hear you were having sex with it from somewhere, not sure if it's true), but if they're really folding too much when you bet out on these boards, just start betting out 100% of the time and profit. In reality they float you with all kinds of shit on this board. You took the line that gets the least amount of money into the pot and looks the strongest, allowing an under-set to not pay you off.

Chris_TC · Jan 13, 2009

I have to agree, that hand was nasty. With top set you want to build a pot at some point.

zachvac · Jan 13, 2009

WVHillbilly said:
Enty I thought we talked about your necrophilia and you swore you had it under control. I've never felt so used. Oh yeah and that's a horribly played hand by both you and your opponent. How do you not manage to get stacks in flopped set over set?????

Honestly not that horribly played by opponent. Probably was going to C/R flop but by the river what's he beat that calls the 3-bet? His raising range could be missed draws, sets, one of two straights that flopped gutshots and rivered it, or just plain air. Only the sets/straight pay you off. Even if he's value raising a slowplayed AK villain can't imagine enty's gonna call the 3-bet with that. Actually looking at it bet sizing is horrible but yeah back to the initial point just bet when you hit a monster. You balance that by also betting non-monsters, not by checking them back on super-drawy boards.

widowmaker89 · Jan 13, 2009

they both played poorly, I dont particularly like a c/r on the flop but whatever, how about the bet sizing, its terrible and enough to make the hand play poorly. I agree the call on the river isnt bad but it shouldnt have got that far really from his point of view as well. You guys like a c/r from villian here on the flop?

zachvac · Jan 13, 2009

widowmaker89 said:
they both played poorly, I dont particularly like a c/r on the flop but whatever, how about the bet sizing, its terrible and enough to make the hand play poorly. I agree the call on the river isnt bad but it shouldnt have got that far really from his point of view as well. You guys like a c/r from villian here on the flop?

You would donk this flop? Granted that's why I think set mining oop is a mistake, because it's hard to extract value.

WVHillbilly · Jan 13, 2009

widowmaker89 said:
they both played poorly, I dont particularly like a c/r on the flop but whatever, how about the bet sizing, its terrible and enough to make the hand play poorly. I agree the call on the river isnt bad but it shouldnt have got that far really from his point of view as well. You guys like a c/r from villian here on the flop?

I don't mind the villain going for a C/R with a set on an Ace high flop but when he does start betting on the turn his bet sizing is terrible. If only he'd bet more normally he could have lost his entire stack!

widowmaker89 · Jan 13, 2009

Yeah I am pretty torn now that I think about it. I do not really set mine OOP since extracting value is so tough. I think I still I donk it though if I were to be there. If he doesnt have an A I am getting 1 bet unless I have a villian who barrels often. This flop hits too much I think I would donk flop and all other streets. We probably get a bet out of JJ,QQ,KK anyway if we bet.

AK AQ typle hand may even call us all the way down for stacks, we are at 25nl here.

Dwilius · Jan 13, 2009

cAPSLOCK said:
Whuchu talkin' bout D'wilius!?!

That's the line I'm supposed to get, but the other day I got "I pity the foo'..." villain obv read the same cliffnotes on black TV characters as Barack.

widowmaker89 · Jan 13, 2009

What is everyones c/r flop %? I am not at home so I cant check mine now but I think I am exploitable here as I dont know any situations where I like a c/r as as standard play. Is this a big problem? I will c/c all sorts of hands and play turns varied but I dont know if I c/r flop enough.

switch0723 · Jan 13, 2009

i saw a tombstone once with 'Enty, please don't dig me up and bum me' written on it

*** January's Juxtaposed Pokahz Chat ***

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* January's Juxtaposed Pokahz Chat *