*** Mo' Money May Chat Thread ***

[blankoblanco]

btw, your only defense of TR in comparison was that it's legal. and there's like no difference at all, you can sit there and watch an entire freaking session someone played on TR. to say one is intrinsically unfair and the other isn't is just ridiculously incongruous. and what dsvw just posted said buying HHs is legal as well. so...

 

[zachvac]

PokerStars response about purchasing Hand Histories :

umm wtf that's a very recent change in policy as recent as a few months ago they were extremely against it. Sigh maybe I should go buy some if it's legal. I guess everyone else is doing it anyway.

You have information on people through your HUD and tracker. Not all of these people have that information on you (since not everyone uses a tracker). Does this mean that what you're using is unfair as well? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I'm curious as to what the big difference between having an edge by having a program that keeps track of stats, and buying hand histories that allow you to get some information on other opponents, even if they don't have that information on you. I guess having a HUD is fine because the hand histories are available to everyone and it's their choice to do what they want with them? All this ethical talk makes my head spin.

Edit: goddamn beaten by like 19 people.

Nope, because it's legal within the Pokerstars terms. Pretty sure even still we all agree not to buy HHs when we hit the I agree button. The biggest difference though is it's hands against me. I can know how much I've 3-bet an opponent in the past, and in fact my tracker can tell me this info if I look it up. So I can tell what my image is in his eyes. If he has datamined or bought HHs though I don't know what he sees my 3-bet % as or any other stat so I can hardly make a counter-adjustment. Maybe I like raising flops as a bluff and I know this particular villain has yet to see me show down a bluff but in reality he has 55 HHs of me doing it as a bluff and only 10 for value so he knows I enjoy bluff raising flops. Just that kind of thing where instead of playing the he knows that I know that he knows game we're playing the "I don't know if he knows or not because he may or may not have bought HHs".

 

[zachvac]

btw, your only defense of TR in comparison was that it's legal. and there's like no difference at all, you can sit there and watch an entire freaking session someone played on TR. to say one is intrinsically unfair and the other isn't is just ridiculously incongruous. and what dsvw just posted said buying HHs is legal as well. so...

If you think the information gained by looking at TR outside of playing and maybe watching a session or two and having hundreds of thousands of hands in a tracker at the time of playing and HUD stats with every single minor detail about how they play over those hundreds of thousands of hands is the same advantage then I really don't know what to say...

 

[blankoblanco]

i'm not saying it's the same advantage. murdering 1000 people is different from killing 1 person, but they're both illegal. we're talking about if it's either right to use or wrong to use

lol, so your defense now is basically "oh, well TR is just cheatin' a lil bit, so it's okay" ? you're drawing an arbitrary line, they're either both okay or both not

 

[dsvw56]

can we drop this now?

 

[zachvac]

From the Pokerstars T&C:

5.5. EXTERNAL PLAYER ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS (EPA). PokerStars prohibits those External Player Assistance Programs ("EPA Programs") which are designed to provide an "Unfair Advantage" to players. PokerStars defines "External" to mean computer software (other than the Software), and non-software-based databases or profiles (e.g. web sites and subscription services). PokerStars defines an "Unfair Advantage" as any instance in which a User accesses or compiles information on other players beyond that which the User has personally observed through the User's own game play. We encourage you to read our Prohibited Online Software FAQ.

 

[blankoblanco]

wait, are you trying to own yourself?

so you're saying you are indeed a hypocrite for using TR but rallying against HHs? because i think we already agree with that

 

[vanquish]

If you could earn $50/hour more if you were a mechanic in a live game would you do it?

edit: this is also extremely similar to the steroid argument in baseball

i was gonna put something about the steroid argument but decided to wait

plz explain the mechanic in a live game metaphor.

if steroids were actually undetectable ketchup packets that were available in any mcdonalds for $0.04 each, and you knew that there were lots of baseball players using them, would you eat some ketchup packets if it meant you would earn a salary that was twice as high?

edit: hint: you should ask david sklansky what his answer is

 

[zachvac]

i'm not saying it's the same advantage. murdering 1000 people is different from killing 1 person, but they're both illegal. we're talking about if it's either right to use or wrong to use

lol, so your defense now is basically "oh, well TR is just cheatin' a lil bit, so it's okay" ? you're drawing an arbitrary line, they're either both okay or both not

Well personally I have not looked at any sessions on any of my opponents anyway on TR but I still don't see how you could possibly see that as an unfair advantage. Having a representative sample of hands in which you can make countless conclusions you could not have otherwise is a pretty big advantage. Also the biggest thing imo is whether it's legal. If it really is legal to buy hands I'm pretty sure I will be buying hands pretty soon because Vanquish is right if there's an edge to be had within the rules it's pretty smart to take it.

 

[zachvac]

wait, are you trying to own yourself?

so you're saying you are indeed a hypocrite for using TR but rallying against HHs? because i think we already agree with that

Please explain how I am a hypocrite.

 

[blankoblanco]

TR provides "aggression", "showdown", "looseness", BB/100, etc. which are based on representative samples of hands...

 

[zachvac]

plz explain the mechanic in a live game metaphor.

You know what a mechanic is right? You cheat while dealing? In fact it was one of the central points in Rounders that most poker players ignore. Worm thinks it's perfectly fine to push every edge regardless of the rule while Mike simply wants to push every edge within the rules. I guess I see myself as more like Mike, rather beat the game straight up. If you want to try to push every edge you can find be my guest.

 

[zachvac]

TR provides "aggression", "showdown", "looseness", BB/100, etc. which are based on representative samples of hands...

Wow that will really help you to make a tough decision. "omg this is a reg but I remember from looking at TR the other day that he was aggressive and somehow I didn't know that so I'll call". Also unless you memorize those or else write them down (since you can't look at TR in-game) it still doesn't help you.

 

[vanquish]

 

[kleitches]

LMAO

Vanq that is so ****ing golden.

 

[blankoblanco]

Wow that will really help you to make a tough decision. "omg this is a reg but I remember from looking at TR the other day that he was aggressive and somehow I didn't know that so I'll call". Also unless you memorize those or else write them down (since you can't look at TR in-game) it still doesn't help you.

you can TR regs while not playing and make endless notes on them, record the notes when you turn the software on. i mean, is that okay because you loophole around their rule? i'm not saying TR is as helpful, just that they are both different degrees of the same thing and i think it's a case where you decide it's either black or white. if one crosses some personal line you have for yourself, that's fine, but i do think it's hypocritical to do the lesser degree of one but actively call out others who do a slightly greater degree of the same thing as being cheaters or being unethical

basically it still just seems like you're saying TR only helps you "cheat" a little bit so it's okay, while purchased hand histories pass some universal cheating line. the fact is either one offers an advantage over someone who isn't using it. but the same is true for HEM/PT

it's prob worth noting that with TR you have several tens of millions of hands at your fingertips, more than most people could ever store on their computer in the form of bought/recorded HHs. buying HHs isn't guaranteed to give you a lot of info on a certain reg, but TR can give you a pretty representative sample of info on any reg at any time

 

[vanquish]

You know what a mechanic is right? You cheat while dealing? In fact it was one of the central points in Rounders that most poker players ignore. Worm thinks it's perfectly fine to push every edge regardless of the rule while Mike simply wants to push every edge within the rules. I guess I see myself as more like Mike, rather beat the game straight up. If you want to try to push every edge you can find be my guest.

so when you sit to play on stars, you say to yourself, "I am playing against cheaters, i'm going to beat them as best i can"?

 

[zachvac]

so when you sit to play on stars, you say to yourself, "I am playing against cheaters, i'm going to beat them as best i can"?

I guess I have faith that the majority of people are playing straight up as well.

 

[vanquish]

plz give me your take on the ketchup packets query, also zach

 

[zachvac]

you can TR regs while not playing and make endless notes on them, record the notes when you turn the software on. i mean, is that okay because you loophole around their rule? i'm not saying TR is as helpful, just that they are both different degrees of the same thing and i think it's a case where you decide it's either black or white. if one crosses some personal line you have for yourself, that's fine, but i do think it's hypocritical to do the lesser degree of one but actively call out others who do a slightly greater degree of the same thing as being cheaters or being unethical

basically it still just seems like you're saying TR only helps you "cheat" a little bit so it's okay, while purchased hand histories pass some universal cheating line. the fact is either one offers an advantage over someone who isn't using it. but the same is true for HEM/PT

it's prob worth noting that with TR you have several tens of millions of hands at your fingertips, more than most people could ever store on their computer in the form of bought/recorded HHs. buying HHs isn't guaranteed to give you a lot of info on a certain reg, but TR can give you a pretty representative sample of info on any reg at any time

ok well first of all I don't use the site hardly ever. I followed Belgo's links and saw the data on myself and him for the first time. In the past I have also used it to look up the winrates of regs. So I guess theoretically you could get a ton of stats/data on regs but I'm pretty sure hardly anyone does that and I don't so I hardly think that makes me a hypocrite.

Whatever, I've made my case, I think I'm done on this topic. Do what you want, although perhaps when you run bad it's actually karma .

 

[zachvac]

plz give me your take on the ketchup packets query, also zach

Been thinking about it. Questions:

1. Are they illegal?

2. If so why?

 

[vanquish]

Been thinking about it. Questions:

1. Are they illegal?

2. If so why?

yes

they are believed to enhance a person's ability to focus on the game (concentration, thinking about the pitcher, seeing a good time to steal, stealing signs) similarly to speed (the drug)

 

[vanquish]

also another aside:

there are already baseball players eating ketchup packets and earning much larger salaries. because ketchup is not unhealthy and is affordable to them, they use it quite often and are able to provide themselves and their families with nicer and more expensive things, and are able to put away more money for retirement/vacationing/kids going to college etc. you do not know which particular players actually eat ketchup packets, and which ones are able to play very very well are able to make their contracts "naturally". the MLB says that because ketchup is so easily accessible (any mcdonalds, any supermarket, any wendy's, you get it), and can not be tested for and is undetectable, it can not be a punishable offense (in the same way performance enhancing drugs would be a punishable offense) to eat ketchup packets both because they can not find out who actually consumed them, who consumed them because they wanted to play better baseball, and who consumed them simply because ketchup is tasty

 

[dsvw56]

Brag : My winrate at 10NL just crawled back above 6BB/100

Beat : I've been at 10NL for over 45k hands

Brag : I try 25NL again tomorrow. 5th time's the charm. . . That's what they say right? RIGHT!?!?!?!?!

 

[vanquish]

Brag : My winrate at 10NL just crawled back above 6BB/100

Beat : I've been at 10NL for over 45k hands

Brag : I try 25NL again tomorrow. 5th time's the charm. . . That's what they say right? RIGHT!?!?!?!?!

just skip 25nl and go straight to 50nl. 25nl is the 200nl of microstakes