*** Mo' Money May Chat Thread ***

[eNTy]

and obviously hes not successful all the time either
as indicated by his blue line

 

[BelgoSuisse]

Belgo, I can't stop thinking about that red line of yours and the hand histories you posted.

What's going through your mind when you make big plays like that to take pots away when there's so much action? Are you making incredible soul reads, sensing weakness, or just taking advantage of players you know don't want to stack off with anything but the nuts?

Obviously those are high variance plays, so what has made them successful for you, if you don't mind me asking?

Mostly it's about knowing the villains. When they take a line that i very much believe they would not take with a very strong hand, and when you think they can fold TPTK and the like if you tell them you want to play for stacks, it's worth going for the big bluff.

It's not about sensing weakness. It's about getting a pretty good feel of the kind of range villain can be playing. If villain balances his action decently so that his ranges remain unpredictable, there's not much you can do, but when they show strong imbalances and you can pretty much predict if they have nuts, air or medium hands, it's pretty easy to exploit.

Also, sometimes i'm totally wrong.

 

[roundcat]

and obviously hes not successful all the time either
as indicated by his blue line

But the green line is nice! Seems like it would be more useful to have the ability to generate non-showdown winnings than showdown winnings long-term.

My red line wanders gently south.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

Also, the big hands are fun hands to post, but most of the red line is about steals, squeezes, cbets, check/raise bluffing against frequent cbetters and that kind of routine plays where you don't need to think that much.

Also, a lot of it is knowing when to tone down your aggression. Like which boards are -EV to cbet.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

And another big part of it is calling bluffs. At the limits i play people start to be pretty aggressive and sometimes i'll take a completely passive (check/call)^3 with TPTK just because the board is irresistible to bluff for villain. Learning how to fold TPTK is paramount to beat 50nl, but it can sometimes become a liability at 200nl.

 

[zachvac]

Belgo, I can't stop thinking about that red line of yours and the hand histories you posted.

What's going through your mind when you make big plays like that to take pots away when there's so much action? Are you making incredible soul reads, sensing weakness, or just taking advantage of players you know don't want to stack off with anything but the nuts?

Obviously those are high variance plays, so what has made them successful for you, if you don't mind me asking?

I'll let him answer since he probably knows better than me, but just because there's so much action does not mean a good hand. Against a ton of opponents when they raise/re-raise a KK7 flop they do not have Kx or 77 because they'd slowplay it and just call. The Baluga theorem comes to mind.

The biggest difference I think is that he is thinking about hand ranges and frequencies while the other players are just playing their cards. There are some spots where folding top 2 is a good play because they never show up with less than sets and some other spots where you can call a 3-barrel with A high and be good a lot. Obviously neither of these spots come up often but I think Belgo thinks about this stuff far more than the average player, and can then think one step ahead. He can put himself in the mind of the other player and think about what he would do with each hand. If he makes a raise with a lot of bluffs or a lot of value hands that fold to a raise Belgo can raise with basically any two cards. Obviously once in a while they have the nuts and he loses a big pot, like Enty mentioned with the blue line.

Anyway I still don't know how his red line is so high, but I think everyone simply tries to play poker as best they can. Belgo doesn't approach a situation as "well if I raise here I can increase the red line and decrease the blue line but it's neutral ev so I'll raise". It's more like he thinks it's a profitable raise for immediate value or just for metagame or w/e.

 

[roundcat]

Mostly it's about knowing the villains. When they take a line that i very much believe they would not take with a very strong hand, and when you think they can fold TPTK and the like if you tell them you want to play for stacks, it's worth going for the big bluff.

It's not about sensing weakness. It's about getting a pretty good feel of the kind of range villain can be playing. If villain balances his action decently so that his ranges remain unpredictable, there's not much you can do, but when they show strong imbalances and you can pretty much predict if they have nuts, air or medium hands, it's pretty easy to exploit.

Also, sometimes i'm totally wrong.

Thanks for the insight. So basically, "know thy villian" -- and also applying it to the flip side, don't be predictable and make it easy for others to take advantage in that way.

I did make a fine bluff last night that got my opponent to lay down two pair on the river when he'd already committed a decent amount of chips. That gave me warm and fuzzy red line feelings and won a nice pot.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

I'll let him answer since he probably knows better than me

on the other hand, you express it much better than i do.

Anyway I still don't know how his red line is so high

I think that compared to you, i call more. For instance, I check/call or bet/call rivers that you would bet/fold, while all lines probably have similar EV.

Also, i play less tables. As soon as i play 12 tables or more, my red line stop moving up. It only goes up because my routine is 8 tabling.

 

[dsvw56]

on the other hand, you express it much better than i do.



I think that compared to you, i call more. For instance, I check/call or bet/call rivers that you would bet/fold, while all lines probably have similar EV.

Also, i play less tables. As soon as i play 12 tables or more, my red line stop moving up. It only goes up because my routine is 8 tabling.

Out of curiosity, whats your WTSD/W$SD?

 

[roundcat]

Also, the big hands are fun hands to post, but most of the red line is about steals, squeezes, cbets, check/raise bluffing against frequent cbetters and that kind of routine plays where you don't need to think that much.

Also, a lot of it is knowing when to tone down your aggression. Like which boards are -EV to cbet.

I cbet far less frequently than I used but haven't turned around and been aggressive with those who do cbet a lot, and also need to work on the other routine plays you mentioned above. Preflop, I know I should be isolating a lot and raising limpers but sometimes it's so much easier just to limp along behind (horrible, horrible, for shame!).

And another big part of it is calling bluffs. At the limits i play people start to be pretty aggressive and sometimes i'll take a completely passive (check/call)^3 with TPTK just because the board is irresistible to bluff for villain. Learning how to fold TPTK is paramount to beat 50nl, but it can sometimes become a liability at 200nl.

There it is again, know your villian. I see a clear theme here.

 

[roundcat]

I'll let him answer since he probably knows better than me, but just because there's so much action does not mean a good hand. Against a ton of opponents when they raise/re-raise a KK7 flop they do not have Kx or 77 because they'd slowplay it and just call. The Baluga theorem comes to mind.

The biggest difference I think is that he is thinking about hand ranges and frequencies while the other players are just playing their cards. There are some spots where folding top 2 is a good play because they never show up with less than sets and some other spots where you can call a 3-barrel with A high and be good a lot. Obviously neither of these spots come up often but I think Belgo thinks about this stuff far more than the average player, and can then think one step ahead. He can put himself in the mind of the other player and think about what he would do with each hand. If he makes a raise with a lot of bluffs or a lot of value hands that fold to a raise Belgo can raise with basically any two cards. Obviously once in a while they have the nuts and he loses a big pot, like Enty mentioned with the blue line.

Anyway I still don't know how his red line is so high, but I think everyone simply tries to play poker as best they can. Belgo doesn't approach a situation as "well if I raise here I can increase the red line and decrease the blue line but it's neutral ev so I'll raise". It's more like he thinks it's a profitable raise for immediate value or just for metagame or w/e.

Yes, I should probably banish the lines from my mind completely when I'm playing. I'll admit I compulsively check my session stats and graph between hands. Maybe it's just novel because this is the first month I've seriously focused on NL cash, but it's fun to look at results from different angles and try to figure out why they're happening and what I can do to improve them.

Good point about heavy betting on a board like the KK7. Sometimes I'll sometimes bet right out if I have a huge hand because I think my opponents won't put me on it, but almost invariably they'll just fold. Maybe it's the limit ($25NL and $50NL).

 

[WVHillbilly]

Yes, I should probably banish the lines from my mind completely when I'm playing. I'll admit I compulsively check my session stats and graph between hands. Maybe it's just novel because this is the first month I've seriously focused on NL cash, but it's fun to look at results from different angles and try to figure out why they're happening and what I can do to improve them.

Good point about heavy betting on a board like the KK7. Sometimes I'll sometimes bet right out if I have a huge hand because I think my opponents won't put me on it, but almost invariably they'll just fold. Maybe it's the limit ($25NL and $50NL).

Looking at result as you play is generally bad. If you're up for a session you may not take a slight edge in the next hand because you want to book a profit. If you're down you may get too aggressive or bluff when you know you shouldn't to try to get back to even.

Even thinking about the last hand you played can be bad except to note a player's line or holding. Make the best play you can in the hand your currently playing. If your play is solid the results will come over time.

Worrying / constantly checking results leads to tilt, which leads to suboptimal play, which leads to more worrying over results, which leads to worse tilt, then worse play, etc. No good can come of it.

My own biggest indicator that I am ready to end a session is when I start thinking about whether I am up or down for that session. It always leads to no good so I just quit.

 

[eNTy]

Looking at result as you play is generally bad. If you're up for a session you may not take a slight edge in the next hand because you want to book a profit. If you're down you may get too aggressive or bluff when you know you shouldn't to try to get back to even.

Even thinking about the last hand you played can be bad except to note a player's line or holding. Make the best play you can in the hand your currently playing. If your play is solid the results will come over time.

Worrying / constantly checking results leads to tilt, which leads to suboptimal play, which leads to more worrying over results, which leads to worse tilt, then worse play, etc. No good can come of it.

My own biggest indicator that I am ready to end a session is when I start thinking about whether I am up or down for that session. It always leads to no good so I just quit.

This whole post can be summarized into one word: enty.

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

I'll try your suggestions about support for rakeback. Having that would make a big difference in NLO/8

 

[BelgoSuisse]

Out of curiosity, whats your WTSD/W$SD?

200nl FR, playing a tightish but not nitty 14/12/3, my WTSD is 27% and my W$SD is 50.7%.

 

[Lemlywinks]

Take a look at the bold... This group (one SN) were just open shoving. This was a $56 dollar pot

PokerStars Game #28460646350: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2009/05/21 15:57:47 ET
Table 'Asterion VII' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: radiky ($1 in chips)
Seat 2: DanCaek ($5 in chips)
Seat 3: lemlywinks ($4.91 in chips)
Seat 4: HotKarlMC ($14.25 in chips)
Seat 5: -#1 RF- ($45.32 in chips)
Seat 6: Sigridsrvice ($19.42 in chips)
-#1 RF-: posts small blind $0.01
Sigridsrvice: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to lemlywinks [Js Jh]
HotKarlMC said, "sigrid you wanna share aim?"
radiky: raises $0.98 to $1 and is all-in
DanCaek: folds
Sigridsrvice said, "sure"
lemlywinks: raises $3.91 to $4.91 and is all-in
radiky said, "hold"
radiky said, "hold"
radiky said, "hold"
radiky said, "hold"
radiky said, "hold"
radiky said, "hold"
HotKarlMC said, "add me Timberwolvesaim"
-#1 RF- said, "wait"
radiky said, "hold"
HotKarlMC: raises $9.34 to $14.25 and is all-in
-#1 RF- said, "the nit shoves"
radiky said, "hold"
radiky said, "hold"
-#1 RF- said, "sigh "
-#1 RF-: raises $9.34 to $23.59
Sigridsrvice: calls $19.40 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($4.17) returned to -#1 RF-
*** FLOP *** [Jd 3c 4d]
Sigridsrvice said, "So don't wanna do this"
*** TURN *** [Jd 3c 4d] <font color='red'>A♥</font>
radiky said, "A"
HotKarlMC said, "765"
HotKarlMC said, "5"
-#1 RF- said, "242424244242"
HotKarlMC said, "65"
HotKarlMC said, "6"
HotKarlMC said, "5"
HotKarlMC said, "65"
HotKarlMC said, "675"
HotKarlMC said, "67"
HotKarlMC said, "5"
radiky said, "A"
HotKarlMC said, "65"
*** RIVER *** [Jd 3c 4d Ah] [Tc]
HotKarlMC said, "6"
HotKarlMC said, "5"
HotKarlMC said, "6"
Sigridsrvice said, "YES"
HotKarlMC said, "5"
Sigridsrvice said, "YES"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
-#1 RF-: shows [2c 4h] (a pair of Fours)
Sigridsrvice: shows [3s Ac] (two pair, Aces and Threes)
HotKarlMC said, "Timberwolvesaim"
Sigridsrvice collected $9.79 from side pot-3
HotKarlMC: mucks hand
Sigridsrvice collected $26.62 from side pot-2
lemlywinks: shows [Js Jh] (three of a kind, Jacks)
Sigridsrvice said, "Hahaha"
HotKarlMC said, "walk walk walk"
radiky said, "sucked"
lemlywinks collected $14.89 from side pot-1
radiky: mucks hand
-#1 RF- said, "fml"
lemlywinks collected $4.75 from main pot
lemlywinks said, "ballin"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $59 Main pot $4.75. Side pot-1 $14.89. Side pot-2 $26.62. Side pot-3 $9.79. | Rake $2.95
Board [Jd 3c 4d Ah Tc]
Seat 1: radiky mucked [Qc As]
Seat 2: DanCaek folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: lemlywinks showed [Js Jh] and won ($19.64) with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 4: HotKarlMC (button) mucked [7s 8d]
Seat 5: -#1 RF- (small blind) showed [2c 4h] and lost with a pair of Fours
Seat 6: Sigridsrvice (big blind) showed [3s Ac] and won ($36.41) with two pair, Aces and Threes

 

[zachvac]

Pretty sure those are all high-stakes tourney guys, I notice at least one name who plays $500-2k HU sngs regularly.

 

[zachvac]

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/balancing-152395/

 

[Lemlywinks]

Pretty sure those are all high-stakes tourney guys, I notice at least one name who plays $500-2k HU sngs regularly.

Ya that's what they were discussing... Still, pretty insane

Edit: confirmed. HotKarlMC is actually ranked a 10 Star :O on Stars and has had a few 50k + MTT cashes...

 

[roundcat]

Question: Is there ever a reason to get all in with AK preflop with a full stack against a typical (not crazy-loose) opponent? In a tournament I have no problem doing this, but at the cash game limits I've been playing it seems like most won't get it all in without AA or KK. Just curious what AIPF thresholds are for you guys.

Player-dependent, of course, but generally?

 

[eNTy]

Generally you'll be in bad shape.
I had difficulty finding any non-crazy reg who would get QQ all in pre even.
Maybe it was variance or whatever but personally I very rarely get AK all in pre, unless against certain players.
BTW: talking mainly about 25nlFR here.

Even if we are on the button and blinds are playing back it's just so much easier to play it postflop, since we are in position imo.

 

[roundcat]

Looking at result as you play is generally bad. If you're up for a session you may not take a slight edge in the next hand because you want to book a profit. If you're down you may get too aggressive or bluff when you know you shouldn't to try to get back to even.

Guilty of that. But stats are so much fun!

Have you guys been using the table scanner beta in the latest Holdem Manager? Also something completely fascinating but not necessarily the best to run all the time while playing.

 

[roundcat]

Generally you'll be in bad shape.
I had difficulty finding any non-crazy reg who would get QQ all in pre even.
Maybe it was variance or whatever but personally I very rarely get AK all in pre, unless against certain players.

Even if we are on the button and blinds are playing back it's just so much easier to play it postflop, since we are in position imo.

Yeah, that's exactly what I've been finding. Just want to make sure I'm not being too tight about it.

 

[S93]

Question: Is there ever a reason to get all in with AK preflop with a full stack against a typical (not crazy-loose) opponent? In a tournament I have no problem doing this, but at the cash game limits I've been playing it seems like most won't get it all in without AA or KK. Just curious what AIPF thresholds are for you guys.

Player-dependent, of course, but generally?

6max or FR?
Yes and yes. Just super situational.

6max im happy to stack of with AK against most laggy regs who i know are capable of 3betting light and are willing to stack TT+,AQ+ prf.
Also if there is alot of dead money in the pot im more then happy to stack of against a tighter range( example i open in MP get 3bet by a villain the 3bets like JJ,AQs, two calls from guys i know set mine 3bet pots here im happy to get it in.)

FR i will get it in if villain has a very high 3bet% but in general not against decent players.

You should be willing to stack like A2,KQ,66 ect against the right villains if there range is weak enough even 100bb deep its just about picking the right spot against the right villain.

 

[F Paulsson]

Question: Is there ever a reason to get all in with AK preflop with a full stack against a typical (not crazy-loose) opponent? In a tournament I have no problem doing this, but at the cash game limits I've been playing it seems like most won't get it all in without AA or KK. Just curious what AIPF thresholds are for you guys.

Player-dependent, of course, but generally?

6-max, I'm (virtually) always playing for stacks preflop with AK. And I don't do it because I'm expecting to show a huge profit from it - I don't - but because by the time that last raise goes in I'm committed.

I open AKo on the button, and the big blind 3-bets me. I 4-bet, because I want him to fold his small and medium pocket pairs and because I'll have the best hand often. He shoves, and I'm getting much too good of a price to fold since he'll have some (rare) bluffs, I'm just slightly worse than a coinflip versus JJ and QQ, I'm in OK shape versus KK and I'm really only crushed by AA.

Or I 3-bet AKo in the small blind (because my hand crushes whatever range the other guy opens with) and the PFR 4-bets. Given that QQ, possibly JJ, and some occasional bluffs are in his range, I can't fold, and I can't really call and play a flop out of position either because I'm suffering from severe reverse implied odds. So I shove and hope he folds.

On average, I lose money with AKo when I get stacks in preflop. But I lose less than a 3-bet, and that's really all I can hope for.