*****Vinyl's GonnaCrushDAmicros 6max thread******

[Matt Vaughan]

@Vinyl:

When we evaluate a player's range, we're not giving them the same qualities/skills/tendencies that we have - although that's a big leak for a LOT of players at all levels.

This is the entire point of looking at player type and individual villain tendencies. We narrow the range not based on if we were playing vs. ourself, but on how stats/reads suggest the villain would play their range on different textures. When we face a x/r on A98 two tone, do we evaluate the range as the same for a weak-tight as for a lag? Of course not. But your post suggests that we would evaluate both players' ranges as if they think the same way we do? Not sure if this was a lapse of concentration on your part, but it seems pretty clear that this isn't how we (as thinking players) typically go about hand analysis.

 

[redwards92]

you are thinking about this wrongly too. You shouldn't attribute your ranges to villain and vary them by position. You should be looking at villains overall stats and modifying them by your reads to get a likely range for him to play, and then modifying that range according to how positionally aware he is. That is why the more stats and reads you give in a hand , the better the advice is going to be as you will see how people are modifying the ranges they are assigning to people based upon the info available. i.e if you have a read that he chases his flush draws and there are two suited cards on the flop and turn bricks for his flush you can bet bigger and extract more value from him chasing his flush. when he misses his flush on the river that opportunity for extra value from his hand has disappeared.

Lot of good points from the two above posts

My hud setup includes all the steal stats (fold to steal, fold to steal sb, fold to 3b after steal etc...)

+ I use the RFI(Raise first in) stats on my hud as well to determine whether or not they are very positionally aware + what kind of range they might have in certain spots

I also have fold to cbet/fold to t cb/ fold to r cb as well and fold to cbet in 3bet+ pots is also one I use but on the pop ups.

like you can't just look at vpip/pfr/3bet and start assigning ranges in every spot and you definitely can't decide what they are doing postflop(and with what ranges they do it with) with just these stats.

 

[long_bong]

///I know i will be taking alot of heat because i kind of overplayed most of these hands. But would like some opinions as to why not.? It seems to me that when we apply huge pressure on people they often tend to make mistakes///


you just figured this out now? 😱 and you say in my thread my lines make me look craaazy lol' that's all I do is play in pos and put opponents in tough tough spots 😛

 

[long_bong]

27/12/3.7 45% steal

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (4 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

Button ($10)
SB ($10)
Hero (BB) ($10.15)
UTG ($3.60)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4

, 10

2 folds, SB raises to $0.30, Hero raises to $0.90, SB calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.80) 4

, 8

, 8

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.80, SB raises to $2.40, Hero calls $1.60

Turn: ($6.60) 7

(2 players)
SB bets $6.70 (All-In), Hero calls $6.70

River: ($20) 4

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $20 | Rake: $1

Results below:

Spoiler

SB had A

, K

(two pair, eights and fours).
Hero had 4

, 10

(full house, fours over eights).
Outcome: Hero won $19

[/quote]
I like this hand 😉 looks like me lol

 

[vinylspiros]

There is an element of results orientated thinking going on here. You are taking the fact that you won these hands as validation that it was the right way to play them .Look at Figaroo's last comment though .....
you are looking at your hand vs his hand on this flop. WHen you make the 3bet bluff though you are representing your entire 3bet range vs their opening ranges and flatting ranges and seeing how that fares across all flop textures.You should also be considering how your 3bet range fares against their 3bet calling ranges, 4 betting ranges and how your actual hand fares against those ranges. You don't seem to be considering how their continuation ranges are affected by the flop and seem to be in a "i'm going to make it expensive for them and get my chips in whatever " frame of mind regardless of how much actual equity and fold equity you may have against them.

This is so completely backwards . say you have a fish and he opens 40% of pots but only cbets AA so his cbet % is ~1% over a large sample. Do you see him as being weak when he fires his cbet?

How about a different fish who raises every single hand he is dealt and cbets every single flop. so he is running 100/100 with a cbet of 100%. Do you think that he is incredibly strong ....or so full of sh*t that you are willing to stack off with a weaker hand than normal. Most people will be rubbing their hands with glee to get a 100/100 and cbetting 100% on heir table as its a cash machine spewing out money.



if you hit the flop 33% of the time , the 50% guy is cbet bluffing 17% of the time and the 80% guy is cbet bluffing 47% of the time. I'd rather float the guy bluffing a lot than the guy that more than likely has hit the flop.
of course because they have a hand they are will ing to stack off with ....they will be folding their junk of=r not barreling at the micros anyway.


you are thinking about this wrongly too. You shouldn't attribute your ranges to villain and vary them by position. You should be looking at villains overall stats and modifying them by your reads to get a likely range for him to play, and then modifying that range according to how positionally aware he is. That is why the more stats and reads you give in a hand , the better the advice is going to be as you will see how people are modifying the ranges they are assigning to people based upon the info available. i.e if you have a read that he chases his flush draws and there are two suited cards on the flop and turn bricks for his flush you can bet bigger and extract more value from him chasing his flush. when he misses his flush on the river that opportunity for extra value from his hand has disappeared.

Keith. First of all i would like to thank your for you opinion when you analysed the aggro hands i posted. Went through your replies and saw saw the logic in your arguments. Thanks alot. Will keep in mind.




also i just went through your detailed reply and wanted to thank you again for breaking it down like that. I see what you mean about the 50% and 80% and for what reason and will try to keep things more balanced.


heres the problem though. donks(bad aggros), maniacs and fish are all kind of the same thing yet are different.

Im not going to be barreling away against each of these types in the same way. I am obviously going to allow the maniac to hang himself and will probably try and bully out the fish if the board runs out my way and the range i have assigned to him the way the certain hand has played out doesnt connect to the given board and mine does.


Overall though. The reason i made the longish post above was because at 10NL where i am currently playing, i have seen MANY MANY instances where people are opening anything from UTG although their stats (PFR) would suggest that they are tighter and also they are calling down incredibly light as they do in the hands that i posted above.


If i had played those hands according to ranges that i would have assigned to villains the way the hands played out, i probably would not have gotten paid because i might have even checked or gotten raised and folded. So what im saying in a nutshell is that sometimes assigning ranges to villains is almost impossible due to the fact that they DO NOT know what they are doing.

So by us, assigning the ranges that we perceive they have, based on their stats and how they played the hand, we sometimes might underplay our hand and not get the appropriate value.




anyways, overall i definitely do get your points and will go through your post again to absorb the info better. Thanks alot.


and keep in mind, i am just playing the part of the advocate of the devil. thnks again keith.


Dont know if you mentioned this before or not,it slips my mind but which limits are you playing at?

It kind of sounds like you have a good grasp of the game and its good that your posting here. Much appreciated.

 

[vinylspiros]

@Vinyl:

When we evaluate a player's range, we're not giving them the same qualities/skills/tendencies that we have - although that's a big leak for a LOT of players at all levels.

What exactly do you mean here? that by us assigning villains on similar ranges with ours ,that that is a mistake? Because if thats what your saying, i do agree.

This is the entire point of looking at player type and individual villain tendencies. We narrow the range not based on if we were playing vs. ourself, but on how stats/reads suggest the villain would play their range on different textures. When we face a x/r on A98 two tone, do we evaluate the range as the same for a weak-tight as for a lag? Of course not. But your post suggests that we would evaluate both players' ranges as if they think the same way we do? Not sure if this was a lapse of concentration on your part, but it seems pretty clear that this isn't how we (as thinking players) typically go about hand analysis.

No no, my previous post could have been better thought out prior to posting it as i was kind of in a rush. Im talking mostly about the fishy players. Not the passive fish but the regfish.


The ones that have a general understanding of the game and stats might look semi -descent but in reality have huge positional leaks and overvalue their hands alot of the time playing it in a way that makes our range loook weaker than what it actually might be.




I get what you meant though scourgee. thanks alot .

 

[vinylspiros]

Lot of good points from the two above posts

My hud setup includes all the steal stats (fold to steal, fold to steal sb, fold to 3b after steal etc...)

+ I use the RFI(Raise first in) stats on my hud as well to determine whether or not they are very positionally aware + what kind of range they might have in certain spots

I also have fold to cbet/fold to t cb/ fold to r cb as well and fold to cbet in 3bet+ pots is also one I use but on the pop ups.

like you can't just look at vpip/pfr/3bet and start assigning ranges in every spot and you definitely can't decide what they are doing postflop(and with what ranges they do it with) with just these stats.

Definitely cant assign solid ranges to people only with these stats. I sometimes look at stats of players who are playing like 20/16 at 6 max and because that is close to what im playing i generally tend to give them similar ranges to myself as we have almost identical stats.


These are the type of players that i feel like i can easier put on ranges.


the thing is that i feel like no matter what their stats are or what they are running that it is usually easier to put the on ranges postflop according to how the hands play out.

I dont think that we ever have time while in game to look at stats such as fold to cbet or something like that.

This might be a leak on my part. I just look at what i have ,the line i took, if i can keep repping and whether or not they have connected in a more overall sense.




Example i raise from UTG +1with 44 and anyone after me just flats. Im automatically putting them on PP from 22-JJ all suited donnectors from like 67-KQ and maybe some suited one gappers. this would obviously be dependant on their VPIP.


If flop comes out something like A67 2 tone and i cbet repping the ace i want to be cbetting biggish because this might make hands like 78 or any non aced hand insta fold. If i bet 50% im giving them a good price to maybe float one street. this will be very alarming for me as i dont see myself firing another bullet due to board texture and action given. but if i just fired 80% instead of 50% im sure the job would have been done, right on the flop ,and i wouldnt be in a weird situation OOP on the turn just cause of my bigger sizing.


Make sense? (this is also in reply to Keith about the sizing)

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Exactly - the whole point of being aware of tendencies is that we can use those to more accurately assign ranges than what we would have done if we assumed they thought the same way as we do.

 

[vinylspiros]

Exactly - the whole point of being aware of tendencies is that we can use those to more accurately assign ranges than what we would have done if we assumed they thought the same way as we do.

The mistake i was making is that i tend to put the "average" player on the same ranges that i would be playing.

the reason i might find this to be kind of convenient is that i dont really have exact range stats at the top of my head. Maybe i should be putting more work into this?

When you see someone's PFR for example( lets assume huge hand sample), how accurate of a range can you put him on PF if he opens from cutoff or UTG+1,,,,,,, and how accurate can this really be in practice and not only in theory?

 

[vinylspiros]

What you think about my line here? villains are both fish.


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

SB ($7.95)
Hero (BB) ($10.88)
UTG ($10.21)
MP ($6.37)
CO ($7.52)
Button ($5.89)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9

, Q

1 fold, MP calls $0.10, 2 folds, SB calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.40, MP calls $0.30, SB calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.20) 8

, K

, A

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.95, MP calls $0.95, SB calls $0.95

Turn: ($4.05) J

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP bets $1.60, SB calls $1.60, Hero calls $1.60

River: ($8.85) 6

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $7.93 (All-In), MP calls $3.42 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $15.69 | Rake: $0.78

Results below:

Spoiler

Hero had 9

, Q

(flush, Ace high).
MP had 8

, J

(two pair, Jacks and eights).
Outcome: Hero won $14.91

 

[Keith_MM]

the thing is that i feel like no matter what their stats are or what they are running that it is usually easier to put the on ranges postflop according to how the hands play out.

I dont think that we ever have time while in game to look at stats such as fold to cbet or something like that.

whats the point having them on your hud if you don't look at the numbers and then use the info to decide on your action. Why cbet someone with air in position against a guy that never folds to cbets. you jus bloat the pot.

This might be a leak on my part. I just look at what i have ,the line i took, if i can keep repping and whether or not they have connected in a more overall sense.

You should definately be considering stack sizes , why cbet if its most of villains stack and you get shoved on and you have air. you effectively price your self in to call.when sizing smaller could alter your decisions.

Example i raise from UTG +1with 44 and anyone after me just flats. Im automatically putting them on PP from 22-JJ all suited donnectors from like 67-KQ and maybe some suited one gappers. this would obviously be dependant on their VPIP.


If flop comes out something like A67 2 tone and i cbet repping the ace i want to be cbetting biggish because this might make hands like 78 or any non aced hand insta fold. If i bet 50% im giving them a good price to maybe float one street. this will be very alarming for me as i dont see myself firing another bullet due to board texture and action given. but if i just fired 80% instead of 50% im sure the job would have been done, right on the flop ,and i wouldnt be in a weird situation OOP on the turn just cause of my bigger sizing.


Make sense? (this is also in reply to Keith about the sizing)

I think you are mistaking the point of the 50% cbet size. I mentioned it in relation to a 3bet pot to help keep he pot size manageable when you miss, but it can also be handy when you are in position and its checked round to you , villains are showing weakness by not donking and you can cbet your air 50% and when you hit you can cbet bigger because now you want to build the pot. most villains at the micros aren't taking notice of how your sizings vary.
With the example you gave , you are out of position and you would only have strong aces in your range so a value bet cbet would be appropriate to rep the ace in your range.

currently playing 25nl , got up to 50 nl last spring, cashed out and hardly played last summer cos of work and then deposited 50$ last october on stars and played a session or two of 2nl FR @ 60 bb/100 playing 30/23 and something like 10% 3bet .posted the session in my blog elsewhere and was challenged that it was a one off and couldn't play like that and must have got lucky so just ran it up. went through made 20buyins at 2nl in ~10k hand , 20 5nl buyins in 2 1/2 session all at fr banged my headd against a nit wall at 10nl lol then swapped back to 6max and gone through 10nl and 16 nl and currently at 25nl.

 

[vinylspiros]

whats the point having them on your hud if you don't look at the numbers and then use the info to decide on your action. Why cbet someone with air in position against a guy that never folds to cbets. you jus bloat the pot.

You should definately be considering stack sizes , why cbet if its most of villains stack and you get shoved on and you have air. you effectively price your self in to call.when sizing smaller could alter your decisions.


I think you are mistaking the point of the 50% cbet size. I mentioned it in relation to a 3bet pot to help keep he pot size manageable when you miss, but it can also be handy when you are in position and its checked round to you , villains are showing weakness by not donking and you can cbet your air 50% and when you hit you can cbet bigger because now you want to build the pot. most villains at the micros aren't taking notice of how your sizings vary.
With the example you gave , you are out of position and you would only have strong aces in your range so a value bet cbet would be appropriate to rep the ace in your range.

currently playing 25nl , got up to 50 nl last spring, cashed out and hardly played last summer cos of work and then deposited 50$ last october on stars and played a session or two of 2nl FR @ 60 bb/100 playing 30/23 and something like 10% 3bet .posted the session in my blog elsewhere and was challenged that it was a one off and couldn't play like that and must have got lucky so just ran it up. went through made 20buyins at 2nl in ~10k hand , 20 5nl buyins in 2 1/2 session all at fr banged my headd against a nit wall at 10nl lol then swapped back to 6max and gone through 10nl and 16 nl and currently at 25nl.

Nice, very nice Keith man. thanks for the breakdown again. Good luck with your 25NL games bro and thnks for tips. Noted.

 

[vinylspiros]

what you think about the hand above? what do you think about the call on the turn?

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Q9hh line looks good.

 

[redwards92]

I play a lot of tables and use all these stats so I mean once you get used to it you will be fine.


... they all help you exploit leaks that regs have which improves your win rate a lot which is crucial as you move up.

like Fold to cb for flop/turn/river is right on my hud as well as cb% for each street as well.

bunch of other stuff like the steal stats and RFI popup as well which all help us play better vs good regs and make it so much easier to exploit bad regs which is crucial as you start moving up.

Utilizing this information that is provided for you through your tracker can only make you a better player

 

[Figaroo2]

Turn: ($4.05) J

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP bets $1.60, SB calls $1.60, Hero calls $1.60

You couldn't have asked for a better card as it gives you a gutshot as well as the flush draw.
You are betting 1.60 to win a pot of 4.05 + 1.6 +1.6 =7.25
which is odds of 7.25 divided by 1.6 = 4.5.
You have nine outs to the flush which is about a 5 to 1 shot with just the river to come. The 4 tens are outs as well.
So you are just short on correct odds of making the flush but with 10s as outs you are about 4-1
The implied odds of getting paid off by the fish are also too good to ignore....as was the case, so the call is fine.
. Plus it was a back door flush which even good players are more likely to pay off. Bet large when your backdoor draws come in.
I'm a little more concerned about the big cbet into two players on the AK flop, this flop is going to hit one or both a ton and you are going to be behind a lot of the time here with little room to improve, one player fine, fire away, but two players is hoping for too much...I would have checked this flop personally.
If you want to cbet it to rep the board, maybe a 50% cbet will achieve the same as a full pot cbet here. If they are scared of the AK on the board with middle pairs they are going away to 50% as well as 100%

 

[vinylspiros]

Turn: ($4.05) J

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP bets $1.60, SB calls $1.60, Hero calls $1.60

You couldn't have asked for a better card as it gives you a gutshot as well as the flush draw.
You are betting 1.60 to win a pot of 4.05 + 1.6 +1.6 =7.25
which is odds of 7.25 divided by 1.6 = 4.5.
You have nine outs to the flush which is about a 5 to 1 shot with just the river to come. The 4 tens are outs as well.
So you are just short on correct odds of making the flush but with 10s as outs you are about 4-1
The implied odds of getting paid off by the fish are also too good to ignore....as was the case, so the call is fine.
. Plus it was a back door flush which even good players are more likely to pay off. Bet large when your backdoor draws come in.
I'm a little more concerned about the big cbet into two players on the AK flop, this flop is going to hit one or both a ton and you are going to be behind a lot of the time here with little room to improve, one player fine, fire away, but two players is hoping for too much...I would have checked this flop personally.
If you want to cbet it to rep the board, maybe a 50% cbet will achieve the same as a full pot cbet here. If they are scared of the AK on the board with middle pairs they are going away to 50% as well as 100%

thnks for the breakdown fig. Makes sense yea. thanks alot.

 

[vinylspiros]

I came to a serious realization today after discussing with some poker friends.


The reason that im not crushing 10NL is because i seriously deviated from my winning 2NL ad 5NL formula which was almost bulletproof.

I went through my hands and my data base and looked at my stats and saw that those stats were not even close to the ones i used to crush.

Starting today , i will be playing a much more solid and tilt free game. Roll is at 260$.



Interesting river spot here. Villain is running 19/13/2.3 which leads me to believe that he isnt a fish.


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

UTG ($8.88)
Hero (MP) ($10.81)
CO ($10)
Button ($11.82)
SB ($13.35)
BB ($18.92)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 10

, 9

UTG raises to $0.30, Hero calls $0.30, 4 folds

Flop: ($0.75) 6

, 3

, 10

(2 players)
UTG bets $0.30, Hero calls $0.30

Turn: ($1.35) 2

(2 players)
UTG bets $1, Hero calls $1

River: ($3.35) Q

(2 players)
UTG bets $2, Hero????? Are we snap folding this river?

 

[duggs]

fold pre v those stats

 

[vinylspiros]

fold pre v those stats

true.thnks.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Fold pre. As played fold turn. As played fold river.

He's so tight, and unless we have reads that he's quite aggro post from EP, there's no reason to think we're ahead once he puts in another barrel. And we're not getting the right price to draw to a 5-outer.

 

[hackmeplz]

OK, here goes.

Been taking way more aggro lines lately. Trying to see if i can get beter results.

Went on a 8 buy in upswing yesterday due to plays like this.

I know i will be taking alot of heat because i kind of overplayed most of these hands. But would like some opinions as to why not.? It seems to me that when we apply huge pressure on people they often tend to make mistakes.

The hands you posted aren't really examples of overplaying hands, you're generally getting it in with TP in a 3b pot, this is fine.

KQ hand 100% fine you squeeze KQo a perfect hand to do it with, and you flop TP you're not going to fold you lose to AQ/33/22. The one thing I will say is I think flop is way too big. With as short as stacks behind are there's no real point in betting so big in a squeezed pot on the flop.

Same with AT although in that hand your sizing is fine. You squeeze, flop TPTK, and just bet for value because you have a strong hand.

KJ no way 3.5xing UTG is going to be profitable compared to folding it pre, but post played fine.

T4s I'd prefer to call pre but 3betting isn't the worst thing in the world. Post it's just a thing on whether he's bluffing too much or playing hands for value too much in this spot. If he's bluffing too much call if he's value-betting too much fold. I think generally it's more likely to be value-betting too much and your call down is probably -ev in the long run but you know way more about frequencies in these games than I do.

 

[vinylspiros]

The hands you posted aren't really examples of overplaying hands, you're generally getting it in with TP in a 3b pot, this is fine.

KQ hand 100% fine you squeeze KQo a perfect hand to do it with, and you flop TP you're not going to fold you lose to AQ/33/22.BUT WHAT IS CALLING THAT BET THOUGH? The one thing I will say is I think flop is way too big. With as short as stacks behind are there's no real point in betting so big in a squeezed pot on the flop. <<<<goood point

Same with AT although in that hand your sizing is fine. You squeeze, flop TPTK, and just bet for value because you have a strong hand.

KJ no way 3.5xing UTG is going to be profitable compared to folding it pre, but post played fine.

T4s I'd prefer to call pre but 3betting isn't the worst thing in the world. Post it's just a thing on whether he's bluffing too much or playing hands for value too much in this spot. If he's bluffing too much call if he's value-betting too much fold. I think generally it's more likely to be value-betting too much and your call down is probably -ev in the long run but you know way more about frequencies in these games than I do.

Thanks for the breakdown hack. It's nice that you dont think these hands are too spewy although alot can be argued that im kind of overplaying them because i am kind of betting big and "luckily" getting called down by worse.


Im thinking that the big sizing will probably fold out worse more than it will be getting called like in the hands above but that too is questionable.



In the 4T hand, his line seemed bluffy to me. especially when he jams turn and tries to pick up initiative from me. Why donk jam turn if his hand is that strong? Did he think i was gonna check behind? lol spot



Thanks again.

 

[OldschoolSteinhausen]

fold pre v those stats

Ya agreed. Its not a horrible call for him to make, but unless he has the button its probably not great.

 

[OldschoolSteinhausen]

The reason that im not crushing 10NL is because i seriously deviated from my winning 2NL ad 5NL formula which was almost bulletproof.

I went through my hands and my data base and looked at my stats and saw that those stats were not even close to the ones i used to crush.

Starting today , i will be playing a much more solid and tilt free game. Roll is at 260$.

The greed and wanting to move up in stakes at a fast pace can play with your head a bit. It sounds like you've got it back under control. Keep at it bro!