Let's build some bankroll - who's with me?

I can see your view. I guess each of us can do whatever we jolly well please, because it is our money. I am much more conservative in my table risk, I guess. I don't want to have everything tied up in case I have to go to the well to cover variance swings.

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I couldn't agree more. Playing out of your comfort zone is a big mistake. At the end of the day, so long as you have an appreciation of BRM, and a plan that suits you, that's fine.

The best analogy that I can think of to explain my logic regarding multi tabling, is a simple coin flip.

Lets say I have have $20 in my pocket. A guy pulls a coin from his pocket, and offers me odds of 5:4 if I guess correctly whether it's heads or tails. I accept the bet (of course) so he asks how much I want to wager. $1 I reply. I'm still getting good odds if I bet the whole $20, but i the first coin flip goes against me I've blown my BR.

Now, lets say there are 20 guys that all offer me the same odds of 5:4 on simultaneous coin flips. I'd happily accept the wager from all of them. If I lose half of the coin flips, I'll still make a profit. That's the way I look at multi-table play. Basically, if I'm playing 2 tables, it's 2 seperate entities (or 2 seperate bets going back to the coin flip). To me, it doesn't matter if the 2 bets (or 2 tables) are at the same time, or the same day, or the next day.

I do understand your concervative approach though. Clearly we all make our decisions according to our own personal circumstanes and personallities, so what works for one will not necessarily be appropriate for someone else.

I guess a mere 25%/month has to satisfy some of us more stodgy players. You and Chris are surely outstripping this. If I tried to flip coins with twenty people at a time, 15 of them would steal my coin and run while I was looking at the other 5. I can barely keep up with the hand review on one table for my fish markings.

Hi Guys!

I am new to that forum, but i found lots of great posts here! Good Job!

I hope i am not breaking any rules here...!

I just wanted to ask all the players here who are trying to build there bankroll few questions...

1) Is poker your only source of income?
2) How many hours per day on average you playing? what time of the day is it?
3) Are you playing from home?
4) how many years have you been playing poker onilne?

reason for my questions is, i been playing online poker for about 1.5 years, but stoped about 6 months ago completely casue the swings were to BIG for me to handle! i just cound't manage any bankroll and could never cash out my winning even tho many of my sessions i ended up with profit...! in one case i made 20K from 200$ playing 1-2 -> 2-4 -> 3-6 and than higher limit games in less than 3 days!!! but lost it all again in few hours...!(no all in poker)

it happened to many times and i ended up loosing my buyins as well, so had stopped till i can figure a way to control my BR and be able to have self discipline!!!

I would love to hear your answers and also suggestions on what should i be doing so those big swings won't happen and i end up lossing it all once again...!?!?!

Lordleon said:

1) Is poker your only source of income? NO!!
2) How many hours per day on average you playing? what time of the day is it? ~2 hours, when I have time
3) Are you playing from home? Yes.
4) how many years have you been playing poker onilne? ~three

but lost it all again in few hours...

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I don't think you can lose it all in a few hours with proper bankroll management. However, I don't think you can go from $200 to 20K in three days with it either. You had to be playing on the edge the whole time. See An exercise in Proper Bankroll Management and How to Build Your Online Poker Bankroll: Where you Should Start.

Boltneck said:

Now, lets say there are 20 guys that all offer me the same odds of 5:4 on simultaneous coin flips. I'd happily accept the wager from all of them. If I lose half of the coin flips, I'll still make a profit. That's the way I look at multi-table play.

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The problem with this is the possiblity of a bad run. Let's divide those 20 coin flips into two halves of 10 flips and 10 flips. Your bankroll is $80.

First half: you lose 8 flips for a net loss of -$22
Second half: you lose 7 flips for a net loss of -$13
Finishing Bankroll = $45

By playing simultaneously, you lost half your bankroll to a bad run.
Had you instead played one flip at a time, you could have switched the bet from $5:$4 to $2.50:$2.00 before the first half was over.

This is the reason why I want to have 20 buy-ins left after I bought in to 4 tables. So at the very least I'll need 24 buy-ins if I want to play 4 tables.

The alternative is this: you keep an eye on your bankroll at all times. If you lose a buy-in on any of the tables, thus dropping below your required minimum bankroll you'll have to quit playing (at all tables) and drop a level.
This seems like a big pita though because I'd rather focus on my game than worry about my live bankroll all the time.

Lordleon said:

1) Is poker your only source of income?
2) How many hours per day on average you playing? what time of the day is it?
3) Are you playing from home?
4) how many years have you been playing poker onilne?

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1) No, I haven't even cashed out much so far. I'll do that only once I'm regularly playing my desired final limit of $5/$10.
2) I currently average about 4-5 hours a day.
3) Yes.
4) I started about 7 months ago. Deposited $100, took it all to a $0.50/$1.00 table, lost it within 90 minutes. Deposited another $40, played lower and more carefully, but only lasted about 3 days before going broke. Deposited a final $60, finally applied reasonable BRM and haven't looked back (or deposited) since.

THX for the quick posting guys!!!

for now i am trying my luck in live casino games ... i find it easier against the many tourists who are coming to spend there money

Chris, so you had manageed to build your bankroll from 60$? and you are at 12K...?!

also i wanted to ask what sites you guys playing at and how is the level of play there? and also what limit/NL games you playing? cash/tourn's?

Stability and predictability

It's funny this bankroll building thread popped up when I brought up this site this afternoon. I've been doing a lot of experimenting which has cost me some money over the past few years but think I've about got the "secret"...if, in fact, there is one.

I'm an accountant and gamble for enjoyment. But, I don't enjoy losing, subscribing to the idea that it's better to gamble "smart" than gamble "dumb" and if there's a way to get sustainable and predictable wins flowing in there's absolutely no reason not to. Soooooo, after years of up and downs, in and outs (no, that isn't from a Polish sex manual), different sites, different games, different limits, I finally think I've hit upon the process.

I won't know until a few months have gone by but, starting (appropriately) January 1st, I'm going to restrict myself to doing exactly what I think I need to. I don't expect big money but my very reasonable goal is to provide myself a regular $1,500 a month without big swings and fluctuations.

If anybody out there has a process that works with similar results, I'd love to hear about it. If I force myself to stay on the reservation and not wander, I'm pretty sure mine will do what I expect. We'll see. If that happens, my online bankroll should simply go up every month.

There's simply too much money floating in the cyber sea for there not to be a way to harves modest amounts regularly. Sorry for the ramble. I do love to play cards. I also love accounting so am not driven to lay either down. Good luck to all. Wormy

Lordleon said:

Chris, so you had manageed to build your bankroll from 60$? and you are at 12K...?!

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That's correct, keep in mind that I never took shots. I started out with $2 SNGs and maintained aggressive but semi-safe bankroll management throughout.

The absolute profits start to grow exponentially as you move up the limits. Turning $60 into $100 (for a net profit of $40) took me pretty long. These days, a net profit of $40 is more like a drop in the ocean.

WormyAces said:

starting (approproately) January 1st, I'm going to restrict myself to doing exactly what I think I need to.
(...)
If anybody out there has a process that works with similar results, I'd love to hear about it.

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I think it would help if you could share your plan with us

I'll share

if it works. It is very specific and structured so until I know if it'll work week after week after week there's no reason for me to yadda yadda yadda yadda about something that may be pure crapola (don't you just love foreign languages?). But, notwithstanding skepticisms, I really don't think it can fail IF IF IF IF IF IF I stay on track and not get greedy. We'll see.

1) Is poker your only source of income?
2) How many hours per day on average you playing? what time of the day is it?
3) Are you playing from home?
4) how many years have you been playing poker onilne?

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1) No - I started playing for fun, and that is still my reason for playing. However, I have been unable to work for the past couple of month due to ill health so have had to make a conscious effort to exercise a reasonable BRM strategy. My "regular" income is likely to reduce / dry up soon.

2) About 4 to 5 hours on average. Used to be a couple of hours at the weekends.

3) Yes.

4) About a year, but only taking it reasonable serious for the past couple of months.

The problem with this is the possiblity of a bad run. Let's divide those 20 coin flips into two halves of 10 flips and 10 flips. Your bankroll is $80.

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Thanks for that Chris, it looks as though the correct approach with regard to multi-tabling is somewhere between pigpen's approach and mine (though significantly nearer pigpen's)!

As I play limit holdem, the rules are somewhat different. However, more by luck than good judgement, I seem to have got it almost right. I'm playing 2 tables at 50c / $1 and take $50 to each table. That leaves (at my current BR of $353) $253 of my bankroll unused at any one time. So, even if I got wiped out on both tables, I would still have 250 BB's (a little low, but not drastically so) so would be able to drop down. As I say, it's more by luck than judgement, and am learning more every day.

I guess a mere 25%/month has to satisfy some of us more stodgy players. You and Chris are surely outstripping this. If I tried to flip coins with twenty people at a time, 15 of them would steal my coin and run while I was looking at the other 5. I can barely keep up with the hand review on one table for my fish markings.

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Hey, Chris is way out of my league - it's a hobby for me rather than a potential / actual career. If I can get to $2 / $4 limit, and still make a profit I'll be quite happy. If I had any aspirations to make a real go of it, I'd need to switch to NL. For the moment, I'm quite happy to enjoy the game and make a bit of pocket money.

The trouble is with me, whilst I have the patience of a saint whilst at the table (never tilt, play tight and am never tempted to loosen up if I get a LONG run of crap hands) I am very impatient to move to the next level. I've resisted so far, and am determined to continue to do so, but my willpower is being tested to the full!

Boltneck said:

I'm playing 2 tables at 50c / $1 and take $50 to each table. That leaves (at my current BR of $353) $253 of my bankroll unused at any one time. So, even if I got wiped out on both tables, I would still have 250 BB's (a little low, but not drastically so) so would be able to drop down.

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This sounds like a very healthy BRM rule to me.
I know virtually nothing about Limit poker, but since 300BBs seems to be the basic rule and you're unlikely to lose everything on both tables anyway, I think you're in great shape!

Hey, Chris is way out of my league - it's a hobby for me rather than a potential / actual career. If I can get to $2 / $4 limit, and still make a profit I'll be quite happy.

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Now don't say that. Looking at your graph makes it pretty obvious that you're a very good player.
Don't make the mistake to think that high limits are out of the question for you. The players really don't get that much better as you move up the limits, so if you're bankroll supports it and you've been owning people left and right at your old level, then there's no reason to think you won't do similarly at the new level.

I am very impatient to move to the next level. I've resisted so far, and am determined to continue to do so, but my willpower is being tested to the full!

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The last thing I'd want to do is sway you away from your bread and butter game when you're doing so well. But have you ever played No Limit?
The winrates are generally higher (so are the swings unfortunately), and a player of your skill would increase his bankroll quite a bit faster I'd think.

Making a transition like that would probably be very scary but might be worth the effort. You could get used to it at the microstakes or even with play money.
Just wanted to throw that out there, "never change a running system" is often the best advice.

I'm All for building a bank roll. Starting with nothing at the moment. If I get the chance to deposit in the near future I will, but not much only $50 now from that if it can grow to $100, then $200, then $400 that would make me happy enough to continue playing.
For the moment it will be free rolls only.

Chris_TC said:

The last thing I'd want to do is sway you away from your bread and butter game when you're doing so well. But have you ever played No Limit?

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I have played NL in the past (maybe 400 - 500 hands, though that was before I joined CC and started taking things a little more seriously) but too be honest I didn't enjoy NL as much as I do FL.

You seem to rather over estimate my ability Chris. I heard it said recently that FL is for mathematicians, and NL is for artists. Well, I'm no mathematician, but I'm absolutely NOT an artist. My game is solid, but no more than that. I can grind out a few dollars a day playing FL by using PT to put my oponents on a range of hands, and evaluating the chances of beating them (based on pot odds / implied odds etc) but anything much more subtle than that is beyond my current skill level. That may not always be the case, but for the moment at least I know my limitations, and think it advisable play within them.

My main reason for playing poker is enjoyment, though of course a few $'s pocket money is a nice bonus. At this stage at least, I'd rather not "kill the goose that laid the golden egg" by moving away from my preferred game in search of greater profit, which I'm probably not (yet?) good enough to achieve.

Boltneck said:

Hey, Chris is way out of my league - it's a hobby for me rather than a potential / actual career. If I can get to $2 / $4 limit, and still make a profit I'll be quite happy.

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Not so. Look at gain in percent. My 25%/month tickles my hams. Chris lately has shown ~100%/month based on the rms line, which is four times better. However, your latest chart shows 150%/month. No way you can say you are not in the same league with Chris; just offset of timeline. You are just two months away from the $2000 that started Chris' chart. Keep up the good work!

I feel the same way you do about limit/NL. I SUCK at NL. It is such a different game for having almost the same rules it is unbelievable. When I have more time to devote to the game I may switch, but not all at once.

Just bear in mind your graphs are only taking sessions into account, no how many hands, tables, or how long you play for.

I could 12 table for 8 hours per day and get it in as one session. TBH I think ye should be using pokergrapher for this.

Day 40: 260% (342.90)
Day 41: 268% (353.37)
Day 42: 267% (352.13)

Today was not one of my better days. I got involved with (and made the wrong judgement) on too many marginal hands. Nothing else of any great significance to report.

tenbob said:

Just bear in mind your graphs are only taking sessions into account, no how many hands, tables, or how long you play for.

I could 12 table for 8 hours per day and get it in as one session. TBH I think ye should be using pokergrapher for this.

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True, but the point of the graphs and updates is not to compare winrates. All we want is to take a frequent look at our current bankroll as it changes on a day-to-day basis.

Nobody cares how many tables and for how long you play. If your bankroll grows, then we're happy for you, there's nothing more to it than that.

tenbob said:

Just bear in mind your graphs are only taking sessions into account, no how many hands, tables, or how long you play for.

I could 12 table for 8 hours per day and get it in as one session. TBH I think ye should be using pokergrapher for this.

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I am guessing each of us plays consistent amounts of time and tables each day. True, this is not a good comparison between players, but, as Chris said, it shows individual's trends.

wsorbust said:

I'm out of the loop here on the dotted brown line. What does it mean? How does it display based on data input? An average?

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pigpen02 said:

The dotted line is a regression best fit line for the data. Cheetah has taken the slope of the line and displayed it as $/session on the graphs of $. Since I think absolute bankroll is NOYB, I only provide % and get no %/session, which is OK.

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wsorbust, pigpen is correct. A simple way to think about it is that it is a line such that the "distance" to the bankroll curve is the smallest.

pigpen, if you like, I can add the slope like for the $ graph. For other readers, the slope is the % per session.

well i had a disappointing day despite the fact i increased my BR by a significant sum. I couldn't place in the money for the life of me, so i decide to try my hand at some PL .10.25. went in with just 15 dollars, which would have left me with 120 in my BR; i was prepared to lose this. Well, that session, plus a few micro HU sng's and i was back up to 150. THEN THE MADNESS BEGAN!

after losing something like 5 out of 6 more of those same SnGs, i was at 142. So i went to the.50/1 tables with 22 dollars. well i got it up to 40 after a while and quit. Then, feeling bored but unsatisfied i continued my idiocy and went to the 1/2 tables with 40 dollars. This again left me with 120 worst case scenario.

Well i got insanely good cards and withing 10 hands i made $70. I got dealt KK back to back, TT 4 times, AK and qj which flopped the nuts. well i quit after that obviously. now I'm kinda worried what to do, should i just keep building or cash out my profit. of course if i keep building its back to the 5.50 sng which haven't been going all to well for me. I don't intend on doing the short stack game too often as it is somewhat nerve racking.

day 1- 110.03 %100
day 6- 142.50 %129.5
day 8- 142.00 %129.05
day 9- 230.35 %209.35

didimaketherightplay said:

well i had a disappointing day despite the fact i increased my BR by a significant sum. I couldn't place in the money for the life of me, so i decide to try my hand at some PL .10.25. went in with just 15 dollars, which would have left me with 120 in my BR; i was prepared to lose this. Well, that session, plus a few micro HU sng's and i was back up to 150. THEN THE MADNESS BEGAN!

after losing something like 5 out of 6 more of those same SnGs, i was at 142. So i went to the.50/1 tables with 22 dollars. well i got it up to 40 after a while and quit. Then, feeling bored but unsatisfied i continued my idiocy and went to the 1/2 tables with 40 dollars. This again left me with 120 worst case scenario.

Well i got insanely good cards and withing 10 hands i made $70. I got dealt KK back to back, TT 4 times, AK and qj which flopped the nuts. well i quit after that obviously. now I'm kinda worried what to do, should i just keep building or cash out my profit. of course if i keep building its back to the 5.50 sng which haven't been going all to well for me. I don't intend on doing the short stack game too often as it is somewhat nerve racking.

day 1- 110.03 %100
day 6- 142.50 %129.5
day 8- 142.00 %129.05
day 9- 230.35 %209.35

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I gather you have no % bankroll limiting plan but a "I will risk this much because what I will have left is enough" plan. If it works for you, OK. Generally, that won't work in the long run, though. Consensus is that you are still not bankrolled enough to play 5.5 sngs much less 1/2 NL.

didimaketherightplay said:

now I'm kinda worried what to do, should i just keep building or cash out my profit. of course if i keep building its back to the 5.50 sng which haven't been going all to well for me.

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Well, since you're participating in this thread, I would think that building your bankroll takes precedence over cashing out.

As pigpen mentioned, you probably should be somewhat more careful if you intend to keep building though. This is mainly in regards to $1/$2 NL. As far as SNGs go, I think $5 tournaments are okay. I think I even played $10 ones when I had your bankroll, but Chris Ferguson's rules may be a bit aggressive for SNGs.

Well, that dotted line is sucking my green line back down. Variance by any other name is still a loss today. Things will get a little worse now that I will no longer be getting first deposit bonus. Better look for another site!

the graph still looking pretty good,pigpen