Online is rigged

esoxhunter71 said:

Anyone that does not think of line poker is rigged is a moron

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Not sure if I fall into that moron category however, I used to be of the opinion that PokerStars was rigged but then realization came to me because I was experiencing the same bad beats, Variance or just dumb results on a number of sites. Poker Stars, 888 Poker, GG Poker, ACR, and a local site called Play Now... It would appear pretty unusual if all these competitive sites were in collusion. really they are competitors. so no they don't set it up to rig things on all the sites. Yet I get bad beats everywhere...My conclusion it is just a factor of the large (extremely Large) number of hands being dealt and at times weird or crazy players who play the worst junk and win...not rigged just part of the game...enjoy. Just my opinion, but you know what they say about opinions...
"they are just like A..Holes everyone has one"

R.Melnyk77 said:

I earn about $100 a month from poker. When I think that online poker is rigged, it makes it psychologically easier for me to accept my meagre profits. If I thought that online poker is not rigged, then I would understand that the problem is me and my skills. Do you understand my point?
Thinking that online poker is rigged is just psychologically convenient for those players who lack skills because then they have an excuse for their failures. I hope I have explained my position on this issue in a clear way

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Thanks. And it is the same for me.

Here I go explaining it again.

online poker is not rigged in the sense of favoring one player over another. It is not rigged in the sense of taking YOUR money away from you.

But there is some rigging done to balance the game between the best players and the worst.

Think about it: if the game is not balanced, the fish will pay and the sharks will withdraw. The result of this is that the fish will eventually disappear, because no one wants to keep putting money in and only lose.

This causes the revenue to drop significantly because it is the large volume of fish paying penny rakes that generates the profits of the rooms.

What is the solution adopted? Change the algorithm so that certain hands lose more often. So, if you are a good player and are dealt premium hands, your chances are lower. That is why going all-in pre-flop with AA is generally not a good idea, because the algorithm forces your equity to be lower. That way, the fish have their victories and everyone is happy.

At least that is what I believe.

Now if you are sure that the room manipulates the game to take money from you and even so you put money in and stay there playing, the problem is with you and not with the room!

Claudiunm said:

Here I go explaining it again.

Online poker is not rigged in the sense of favoring one player over another. It is not rigged in the sense of taking YOUR money away from you.

But there is some rigging done to balance the game between the best players and the worst.

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These two statements contradict each other.

Claudiunm said:

Think about it: if the game is not balanced, the fish will pay and the sharks will withdraw. The result of this is that the fish will eventually disappear, because no one wants to keep putting money in and only lose.

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Yes, this is an issue. Some sites do things like raise the rake to chase away better players, some ban bum hunting etc.. Of course if they could just rig the deal, they wouldn't need to do these things.

Claudiunm said:

What is the solution adopted? Change the algorithm so that certain hands lose more often. So, if you are a good player and are dealt premium hands, your chances are lower. That is why going all-in pre-flop with AA is generally not a good idea, because the algorithm forces your equity to be lower. That way, the fish have their victories and everyone is happy.

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So bad players don't get good hands?

Claudiunm said:

At least that is what I believe.

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Players have data of trillions of poker hands, and they most definitely go over the data. The things you are suggesting would show up in the data. It makes no sense to argue that you can tell anecdotally in real time that certain hands or certain hands for certain players lose/win more than they should but over a huge sample size of Trillions it can't be found. If it were happening, it would show up in the analysis.

I should use this moment to complain that I bubble the freerolls consistently on wpt...buy maybe I just need to be more conscious of how I play at key times...

Claudiunm said:

Online poker is not rigged in the sense of favoring one player over another. It is not rigged in the sense of taking YOUR money away from you.

But there is some rigging done to balance the game between the best players and the worst.

Think about it: if the game is not balanced, the fish will pay and the sharks will withdraw. The result of this is that the fish will eventually disappear, because no one wants to keep putting money in and only lose.

This causes the revenue to drop significantly because it is the large volume of fish paying penny rakes that generates the profits of the rooms.

What is the solution adopted? Change the algorithm so that certain hands lose more often. So, if you are a good player and are dealt premium hands, your chances are lower. That is why going all-in pre-flop with AA is generally not a good idea, because the algorithm forces your equity to be lower. That way, the fish have their victories and everyone is happy.

At least that is what I believe.

Now if you are sure that the room manipulates the game to take money from you and even so you put money in and stay there playing, the problem is with you and not with the room!

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Your first two paragraphs completely contradict each other. So if they aren’t favouring one player over another how are they tilting good players against bad and how are they deciding who is a good player and who is a bad player and again, Exactly how is this benefitting them when they make their profit from rake and that doesn’t change whoever plays, And winners withdraw money, good players and bad players. Also this ‘tilting odds’ can’t be happening in every game all the time so what triggers it, are you saying it randomly does it sometimes? Because if this was the case all the professional players, the streamers the regular casherrs wouldn’t be regularly winning would they? They’d be being knocked out by random morons that have come from nowhere (but would soon be noticed if they play constantly bad hands a win every time).

The thing is that guy that called you with crap and sucked out isn’t going on to win the tournament.. you notice some idiot playing loose and seemingly hitting miracles in a game, and what happens is people start reacting to his play. So they start calling him looser - instead of staying patient and making sure they are winning they get emotional and start calling with A10 etc basically race cards and he will win the race with 86 or whatever few hands because that’s just how it goes. And you get knocked out and think it’s rigged but then 2 hands later someone calls him with QJ off and he finally flips up AA and loses to a straight. That guy who’s playing crazy isn’t going on to win the game I guarantee you.

And don’t tell me you’ve never played a hand bad and bad beat someone. You’ve never beat AA with some nonsense you shouldn’t have played?

You thinking that the reason you lost is because the site is rigged against you is called ‘tilt’. Paranoia will 100% change the way you play in a negative way and you will find yourself in situations and hands you shouldn’t be in.

When you play a hand right but lose that’s just bad luck. It’s the way it goes if you played it well take it and move on. If you played it badly learn from it. But once it’s played move on. Don’t let it affect your play, don’t get tied up in grudge play or revenge.

Next time you get knocked out by a bad beat, keep an eye on where the player finishes. These players aren’t winning tournaments playing crazy

esoxhunter71 said:

It's like I said someone show me how to replay my hands I will prove they use equity distribution.
Take me a week to put the hands together.
If someone can name me one instance in life we're money is involved were corporate world has not found a way cheat people I will eat my phone. Just someone tell me one.
I have 1000 games to prove my point which will also prove I an ahead

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Actually its like in the real world. If you are a small fish compared to the big sharks, it does not mean that you cant profit from that situation.

Therefore i advice you to build your bankroll with freerolls first. I think if you can handle your bankroll you will never get to this point of doubting about online poker.

It would be so easy to prove if it was true, all you would need to prove this would be a HUD and a very large sample size.

For some reason though, the players that think its rigged dont use a hud.

G0930 said:

No you're not otherwise we would have heard from your wins


The fact that you see it that way implies you have no clue about probability...Every pokerplayer has wondered at some point how some beats are even possible, how did he get there...
But in the end common sense prevails and you know its variance paired with poor decisions from players

You never see actual pros bitching about the game being rigged.
It's always people like you who claim they are so great at poker but the mean software doesn't let them win

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And here we go again. Another person making another excuse for why a RNG made by corporations has no chance to be off.

I was really hoping maybe one person would run theses 1000 games with me.
But all I get is a whole bunch of people telling me corporate America would never do anything outside the people's best interest. I can't think of one time corporate did us wrong. Lol yeah right
The next one is I must be losing. You know why I don't work and why I don't play for any real money anymore. Ceaser Palace Main Event. I don't have to.
I feel sorry for all of you. If you can't see the sucker's at the table it's you. Sorry but that is most of you. Go trust corporate all you want I don't. Until I can see the results of the testing with my own eyes Until there testing requires more then pocket kings winning as much as there supposed to. By the way mine have won twice as much as they should of.
I was really hoping I would find some common sense here. I didn't. So I will go back to cataloging my games. I will never post here again. If there one person out there would like to do a serious look at my games.
Wake up people corporate will never and has never played in way concerning anything in life. That is undeniable.

Okay, looks like someone didn't get a bad beat today. It really takes patience to understand the game. Sometimes reaching the long run can be a tough task. Don't give up.

There's a lot of anecdotes from both sides but neither ever proves their point, because there is no access to the data to do so. Popular belief is that proof requires large amounts of data to conclusively say that something is proven.

But there is no access to the hand data. There is no access to audit record data for sites, other than very simplified certificates that say nothing that can be taken as proof. One person's experiences - and hand histories - simply don't tilt the scale for a fundamentally lazy population that is content with just believing that it is always one way or the other.

Good luck with your journey.

esoxhunter71 said:

I was really hoping maybe one person would run theses 1000 games with me.
But all I get is a whole bunch of people telling me corporate America would never do anything outside the people's best interest. I can't think of one time corporate did us wrong. Lol yeah right
The next one is I must be losing. You know why I don't work and why I don't play for any real money anymore. Ceaser Palace Main Event. I don't have to.
I feel sorry for all of you. If you can't see the sucker's at the table it's you. Sorry but that is most of you. Go trust corporate all you want I don't. Until I can see the results of the testing with my own eyes Until there testing requires more then pocket kings winning as much as there supposed to. By the way mine have won twice as much as they should of.
I was really hoping I would find some common sense here. I didn't. So I will go back to cataloging my games. I will never post here again. If there one person out there would like to do a serious look at my games. Send me a email at [email protected].
Wake up people corporate will never and has never played in way concerning anything in life. That is undeniable.

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Poor chap. I feel sorry for you. Deep fake or deep state. Whatever.

esoxhunter71 said:

Open your mind son it might help your game

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I know you said you're not responding anymore, but on the off chance what exactly did you mean by this? How does having an open mind to rigged RNGs help your game, regardless of whether it is or isn't rigged?

esoxhunter71 said:

I was really hoping maybe one person would run theses 1000 games with me.

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What site are you playing on? You might be able to ask for your hand histories. I don't think wsop allows it which is absolutely horrible (If true) not because they could be hiding a rigged deal but because hand histories is a good way players identify bots and cheaters.

But if you're familiar with the online poker community there's a lot of data driven people. They've gone over more than you'll ever play.

esoxhunter71 said:

But all I get is a whole bunch of people telling me corporate America would never do anything outside the people's best interest. I can't think of one time corporate did us wrong. Lol yeah right

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It's not that they won't do anything outside of people's best interest. The point is rigging the games is outside of the sites best interest. If the site is found to have a rigged deal it would kill the site. That's bad for business.

esoxhunter71 said:

I was really hoping I would find some common sense here

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You did but you've made up your mind based on what sounds like a little run bad. Maybe combined with some bad play.

gloria_marga said:

Yes, in online poker there are unlikely hands compared to live poker. But that doesn't mean it's fixed. Whoever wins an online tournament wins because they are the best. Because throughout the tournament, everyone has received bad hands and played them well. Even those who won the tournament.

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Negative, the variance is high, winning a tournament doesn't mean they played better, it means they played well, but also had the luck factor on their side, and there are players who play poorly and still win tournaments, so your statement is only half true.

puzzlefish said:

There's a lot of anecdotes from both sides but neither ever proves their point,

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The burden of proof is on those claiming it's rigged. The only point the other side has to make is that there's no proof being provided. .

puzzlefish said:

One person's experiences - and hand histories - simply don't tilt the scale for a fundamentally lazy population that is content with just believing that it is always one way or the other.

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What data would be needed if hand histories over a large sample won't cut it? Or maybe better asked as if the games are being rigged where would we find the evidence?

Claudiunm said:

Here I go explaining it again.

Online poker is not rigged in the sense of favoring one player over another. It is not rigged in the sense of taking YOUR money away from you.

But there is some rigging done to balance the game between the best players and the worst.

Think about it: if the game is not balanced, the fish will pay and the sharks will withdraw. The result of this is that the fish will eventually disappear, because no one wants to keep putting money in and only lose.

This causes the revenue to drop significantly because it is the large volume of fish paying penny rakes that generates the profits of the rooms.

What is the solution adopted? Change the algorithm so that certain hands lose more often. So, if you are a good player and are dealt premium hands, your chances are lower. That is why going all-in pre-flop with AA is generally not a good idea, because the algorithm forces your equity to be lower. That way, the fish have their victories and everyone is happy.

At least that is what I believe.

Now if you are sure that the room manipulates the game to take money from you and even so you put money in and stay there playing, the problem is with you and not with the room!

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Is this the reason why you're winning? Or is this the reason why you're losing...

S3mper said:

The burden of proof is on those claiming it's rigged. The only point the other side has to make is that there's no proof being provided.

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Sure, but that is a lazy approach to the issue.

S3mper said:

What data would be needed if hand histories over a large sample won't cut it? Or maybe better asked as if the games are being rigged where would we find the evidence?

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Hand histories don't present data on certain aspects of the RNG's function, such as any time dependency of individual players' exposures to negative variance (or periods of unusually positive variance) for example. Nor do hand histories show everyone's hands at a given table to see who gets winning cards and when. The evidence is in having access to entire hands, which includes everyone's cards, for any requested amount of time.

puzzlefish said:

Sure, but that is a lazy approach to the issue.

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It's not that it's lazy - It's impossible to prove a negative. There is no evidence to provide except for the lack of evidence being provided

puzzlefish said:

Hand histories don't present data on certain aspects of the RNG's function, such as any time dependency of individual players' exposures to negative variance for example. Nor do hand histories show everyone's hands at a given table to see who gets winning cards and when. The evidence is in having access to entire hands, which includes everyone's cards, for any requested amount of time.

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Such data would be impossible to give out publicly as it would require showing everyone's hole cards. Bovada does do this but since the tables are anonymous it wouldn't be any help.

Of course, the RNG's themselves along with access to everyone's hole cards are inspected and nothing is found. But no amount of audits would be good enough for people who want to believe it's rigged because the auditors are in on it too! It's a non-falsifiable game those who can't find evidence play.

The reality is this - The sites are not rigged and if they were someone with knowledge of the rigging would have come out by now. Are we to believe across all the scammy and legitimate sites that exist and have existed there hasn't been on disgruntled employee with knowledge of the RNG?

esoxhunter71 said:

I was really hoping maybe one person would run theses 1000 games with me.
But all I get is a whole bunch of people telling me corporate America would never do anything outside the people's best interest. I can't think of one time corporate did us wrong. Lol yeah right
The next one is I must be losing. You know why I don't work and why I don't play for any real money anymore. Ceaser Palace Main Event. I don't have to.
I feel sorry for all of you. If you can't see the sucker's at the table it's you. Sorry but that is most of you. Go trust corporate all you want I don't. Until I can see the results of the testing with my own eyes Until there testing requires more then pocket kings winning as much as there supposed to. By the way mine have won twice as much as they should of.
I was really hoping I would find some common sense here. I didn't. So I will go back to cataloging my games. I will never post here again. If there one person out there would like to do a serious look at my games. Send me a email at [email protected].
Wake up people corporate will never and has never played in way concerning anything in life. That is undeniable.

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....I'm confused is PokerstarsNJ not a real money site???, you're there playing for real money every single day,

haven't missed a day yet😎....., you're not the first to claim poker is rigged because they're losing,

people have run over a million hands and found nothing so not sure what you think 1K hands could

possible prove.... but yeah sure bud anytime I want to discuss something with people I

always start out with calling them a "moron"🙄👍

S3mper said:

It's not that it's lazy - It's impossible to prove a negative. There is no evidence to provide except for the lack of evidence being provided

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Evidence of something running normally would be similar to data graphs that show no unexpected correlations, just noise. A negative would be something like an engine running normally on a car. There are tests to show that it is normal. It doesn't have to be considered a negative of a problem and therefore impossible to prove.

S3mper said:

Such data would be impossible to give out publicly as it would require showing everyone's hole cards. Bovada does do this but since the tables are anonymous it wouldn't be any help.

Of course, the RNG's themselves along with access to everyone's hole cards are inspected and nothing is found. But no amount of audits would be good enough for people who want to believe it's rigged because the auditors are in on it too! It's a non-falsifiable game those who can't find evidence play.

The reality is this - The sites are not rigged and if they were someone with knowledge of the rigging would have come out by now. Are we to believe across all the scammy and legitimate sites that exist and have existed there hasn't been on disgruntled employee with knowledge of the RNG?

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I don't think you know the details of audits as well as you think you do, because you have no access to that data yourself.

As for RNGs, there doesn't have to be a disgruntled employee that's aware of it. Sites may be using RNGs that are designed externally by other companies (and they usually are to the best of my knowledge). The site is either aware that the RNG has certain features or maybe they are not and as long as it works for them then they don't care.

Again, none of this is to say that there are rigged RNGs or not, but I just don't trust that there is sufficient testing of the right metrics to make me believe that they are not rigged - and as you said, the data I am seeking cannot be released.

puzzlefish said:

I don't think you know the details of audits as well as you think you do, because you have no access to that data yourself.

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Here's what ChatGPT had to say about Itech Labs (who ACR uses) And quite frankly if ACR of all sites isn't rigging the deal none of them are (Not including Apps)

Edit: I don't know why it's splitting the spoilers into 2. I can't fix it lol.

Spoiler: ChatGPT Response

1. RNG Testing

​

puzzlefish said:

Again, none of this is to say that there are rigged RNGs or not, but I just don't trust that there is sufficient testing of the right metrics to make me believe that they are not rigged - and as you said, the data I am seeking cannot be released.

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Okay two questions.

1.) What do you think the neutral stance should be on whether the RNG's for big name poker sites. Probably rigged or probably not rigged?
2.) Which stance do you currently believe probably rigged or probably not rigged?

esoxhunter71 said:

So I will go back to cataloging my games...this and that

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A Very wise decision by u and 💯% agree on this 🤝

Don't forget to post results after 1k Games 👍

S3mper said:

Here's what ChatGPT had to say about Itech Labs (who ACR uses) And quite frankly if ACR of all sites isn't rigging the deal none of them are (Not including apps)

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Ask ChatGPT to give you some sources of where it got its information and, more importantly, whether the audit methods have been validated and how.

S3mper said:

Okay two questions.

1.) What do you think the neutral stance should be on whether the RNG's for big name poker sites. Probably rigged or probably not rigged?
2.) Which stance do you currently believe probably rigged or probably not rigged?

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I don't like to think of an RNG as rigged or not. I think of them as exploitable or not. Rigged implies that there is a particular benefit to the operator of the RNG. Exploitable means that someone with inside knowledge (or through learned knowledge) can target the RNG to get a particular result that is absolutely not random, in a predictable manner. I believe most (if not all) RNGs are exploitable.